My fish are dying!! High Ph??

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Discuss all topics related to freshwater and planted tanks.


fuller92
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:53 pm

My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by fuller92

Hello all, My name is Michelle. I have a 10 gallon tank that I am trying to keep going for my dad who passed away 4 months ago. We were having troubles with extreme algae growth and I had tried to clean it while my dad was in the hospital but I ended up accidentally killing the remaining fish. So, I researched and cleaned the tank, got almost everything I need, and got some fish about 5 days ago.I bought 3 long-fin zebra danios,3 silver mollies, and 2 red wag swordtails. I did a ph test the first day and it was normal at 7.2, but yesterday I went to turn the light off and 2 of my silver mollies were dead. I did a ph test and it's above 8.2 which is what I'm thinking may have killed them. I was hoping somebody could help me figure out why it went up so quickly and what to do to lower it safely. Please, any help is greatly appreciated! Thank you! :)


natalie265
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Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by natalie265

Changes in ph can definitely stress fish, but first, i would rule out ammonia and nitrite. If you just added 8 fish to a new tank (new in terms of it being uncycled, which if it sat empty for any period of time it is), i think it's more likely the culprit. Can you test for ammonia, nitirite and nitrate and tell us the numbers?


As for the cause of the ph increase, did you add any type of rocks or gravel to the tank? Did you do a water change before the last test (in most tanks water softens a bit as it ages, so a big water change can increase the ph)? It could also be just an inacurate test.


fuller92
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:53 pm

Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by fuller92

Thank you for your response. Well, the kit i have only tests the ph and chlorine. I started the tank this timefirst by boiling the plants and rocks and cleaned the tank so the algae didn't come back. And I had it running for a few days before I added the fish. (because I learned from the last time about killing fish with chlorine from the tap water), And it's been only a week since I got the fish so I was going to do the water change in a few days. I keep testing the ph, and yesterday, it was around 7.6, and today it's above 8.2 again.I'm down to one lone swordtail. I'm trying to find safe ways to fix the ph...I've heard a few drops of lemon juice will help, peat moss(but it turns the water yellow, and a few other things. What is your opinion? And thank you very much for your help! :)


Okiimiru
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19 pm

Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by Okiimiru

"What is your opinion?"
As Natalie asked, please test your water and report back to us the concentration of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in parts per million. Test kits should be about $7 at your local pet store.

Read these two things and come back to us with any questions.
1. http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_5 ... rticle.htm
2. Slide 8 of this powerpoint presentation: http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~davisda/class ... Design.pdf
Day 0 is the first day fish flakes are added. Day 40 is the day the tank is safe for fish to be added.


fuller92
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:53 pm

Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by fuller92

Thank you very much. This will be very helpful. I will buy the other kit and do the tests and get back to you. Thank you for your help.


fuller92
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:53 pm

Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by fuller92

Thank you very much for sending those links. I've read about the ammonia and nitrites and have a clearer understanding of what it is and does. I'm going to be sure I have that info at all times. Very helpful! I appreciate it very much.I found a test kit that I believe might work but I would like a second opinion just to be sure. It is the "tetra laborett master test kit"..on the description it says tests the "ph, carbonate and general hardness, nitrite ammonia, and carbon dioxide." Im a little confused because from what I understand, nitrite and ammonia are different but the same. Because ammonia causes the nitrites..well that's what it sounds like from what I read about the ammonia cycle. So, is a seperate test required for both nitrites and ammonia? The way it sounds in the test kit, "nitrite ammonia" sounds like its one test for either the nitrites OR ammonia. Not both. I just want to make sure I am understanding and testing everything correctly. I also have a few questions about aquarium salt. Is it essential for freshwater fish, will it change the ph or other levels in the water at all, and is there a time to not put it in the tank? I apologize for all the questions but I truly am grateful for your help.


jessikaye01
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:21 pm

Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by jessikaye01

In NO WAY am I qualified to answer this but ammonia problems are something that I know a bit about.

I've struggled with ammonia problems for months now, lol, long story short high levels cause MAJOR problems.

I use a 5 way strip to test my water. They are at WalMart for about $12.
Yes, you need seperate tests for testing the balances of the water and these are helpful.
They perform 5 tests in one.

I have been recording my results for a month now and FINALLY have a handle on the levels in my tank thanks to Okimiru and a few others.

I just wanted to let you know about the 5 way test, sorry I cannot answer anymore as I'm kinda in the same boat..lol!!!


Okiimiru
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19 pm

Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by Okiimiru

"I found a test kit that I believe might work but I would like a second opinion just to be sure. It is the "tetra laborett master test kit"..on the description it says tests the "ph, carbonate and general hardness, nitrite ammonia, and carbon dioxide." Im a little confused"

Yes, the online Walmart description of the Tetra Test Laborette Kit is very confusing. Whoever wrote that forgot to press enter in between the two words to separate them on different lines. I used to own that kit and can say for sure that it does both ammonia and nitrite. Also http://www.amazon.com/Tetra-16628-Test- ... B0002563OK says so too.
The downside to the kit is that after a year or two mine started precipitating out of solution. I did not trust the solutions to remain accurate when their active ingredients had started crystallizing and leaving the bottle. So I bought Jungle Labs 6-In-1 Test Strips because I was planning to use them for long term testing and test strips can't up and crystallize on you.
http://www.amazon.com/6-IN-1-QUICK-TEST ... B000UWSB7C
I would recommend for a new fish tank owner to purchase ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate tests. Over time after your tank has finished cycling the ammonia and nitrite tests become less important because they are boringly and happily zero every time you test them. After the tank is stable the test you will use the most often is the one for nitrate so that you know when to do water changes. Test every week and if nitrate is 30 ppm or above, do a water change. If after a few years of everything running smoothly one day your fish get sick, you can go out and buy a new ammonia test kit. Unlike the one that has sat on your shelf for five years, you can bet on a new test being less likely to have expired.
Although to each their own. *shrugs* I have a Walstad style tank and no matter how long I let it go in between water changes the nitrate always stays between 0 and 20 ppm (the lowest amount on the strip) so I do water changes based upon how tannin stained yellow my water is looking. *nods* Another good reason to own a test kit is if your water is likely to change suddenly. My tap water is dangerously unbuffered at 0 degrees of hardness and 0 KH, so if the mulm builds up on the bottom of the aquarium, the water can swing from pH 7 to pH 5 and below in an extremely short amount of time. So I keep the 6-in-1 test strips around to measure pH, and I think other fishkeepers should not be afraid to test their water at the first sign of something being wrong.

"ammonia causes the nitrites..well that's what it sounds like from what I read about the ammonia cycle. So, is a seperate test required for both nitrites and ammonia?"

Ammonia is NH3. Nitrite is NO2. Nitrate is NO3.

When you add protein to the aquarium as fish food, the nitrogen in the protein is broken down either by sitting rotting on the ground or by being eaten by the fish and excreted. When the protein is broken down it is turned into ammonia, NH3. That's one nitrogen with three hydrogen molecules. At this point one of three things could happen.

1. Nitrosomonas bacteria could eat the NH3 and excrete NO2.
2. Plants could eat the NH3 and CO2 and using photosynthesis excrete O2.
3. The ammonia could sit there and accumulate.

One of those three things will happen to each individual ammonia molecule. If it goes the bacteria route then there is now an intermediate, nitrite (NO2) which is of intermediate toxicity in between deadly deadly ammonia and meh deadliness nitrate. Nitrite's kind of in the middle as far as how little of it can kill your fish. Anyway, continuing my story, that nitrite molecule then can do one of two things:

1. Nitrospira/Nitrobacter bacteria could eat the NO2 and excrete NO3.
2. Nitrite could accumulate.
(Plants don't eat nitrite).

So ammonia and nitrite are two different things and get processed in different ways. The three molecules of nitrogen all have different toxicities. Ammonia can kill fish at even 1 ppm (the fish often contract opportunistic diseases like ich that they wouldn't otherwise have been susceptible to). Nitrate starts to bother fish and make them susceptible to disease at about 40 ppm and above, although this is highly variable by species. Pond fish live in an environment where they have to learn to deal with nitrate or they'll no longer survive in that pond. Ocean fish and African rift lake fish have such a large volume of water to dilute nitrate that they can afford to be very susceptible to it and that susceptibility will never come up in the wild. Anyway, my point is, ammonia is more toxic than nitrite, and nitrite is more toxic than nitrate. Bacteria process ammonia into nitrite into nitrate. Plants eat either ammonia or nitrate but will not eat nitrite. Plants actually prefer to eat ammonium, NH4+ (an extra hydrogen proton on the NH3) preferentially over nitrate, NO3. It saves them some energy. Here's some more info on that if you're interested: http://theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_B ... Filtration

I think my long, rambly point is that ammonia and nitrite are not the same thing, and that ammonia does not spontaneously become nitrite. It has to be eaten by nitrospira bacteria to become nitrite. And if you use plants as a method to remove ammonia instead of bacteria (read Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad for more info) then you'll never see any nitrite at all.


natalie265
Site Admin
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:48 pm

Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by natalie265

I've never heard of putting lemon juice in a fish tank. It sounds like a bad idea. Test for ammonia, nitrate and nitrite first. I don't think the ph is your problem.


dream2reef
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:19 am

Re: My fish are dying!! High Ph??

by dream2reef

Dang natalie I liked the ammonia 101 and you just said he didn't have to say any of that. What's a walstad style tank anyways. Nevermind I'll google that sorry.

My fish are dying!! High Ph??

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