No Water Change In Six Months
65 posts • Page 3 of 7
-
yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
and the last picture......please never ever ask this of me again
-
- anyone who buys this crap is.....never mind (I like Rate My Fish Tank too much): #@!%$#@#
-
yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
by the way Natalie, congrats on being Site Admin
-
mcfaddy212000 - Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:20 am
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
How many fish do you have and how big is this tank?
I can't believe nobody has made a bad response to this topic. Their are a lot of people thathas mixed feelings towards this I'm sure.
I can't believe nobody has made a bad response to this topic. Their are a lot of people thathas mixed feelings towards this I'm sure.
-
natalie265 - Site Admin
- Posts: 746
- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:48 pm
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
Thanks, yasher! Your old tank was kind of a train wreck, huh?
Mcfaddy, some of us have been skeptical, myself included. Certainly, i don't think the all natural tank is for everyone. Even yasher has cautioned against newbies trying this at home. Personaly, i don't see giving up a filter and water changes, unless you're just looking for an interesting challenge, which might be yasher's point. But, in any case, i am rooting for him to be successful. Well, partly that is...i don't want to lose my bet!
Mcfaddy, some of us have been skeptical, myself included. Certainly, i don't think the all natural tank is for everyone. Even yasher has cautioned against newbies trying this at home. Personaly, i don't see giving up a filter and water changes, unless you're just looking for an interesting challenge, which might be yasher's point. But, in any case, i am rooting for him to be successful. Well, partly that is...i don't want to lose my bet!
-
mcfaddy212000 - Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:20 am
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
He will probably be fine if he is way under stocked but I would have to say it is not healthy for the fish by not doing the water changes and adding minerals back into the tank that the fish need. Also there are always changes in a tank filtered or not that we don't test for or ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels that are so small that are kits don't pick up besides that say you have food laying on the bottom that is not moved if you could test that water right there it would read different then someplace else this is a change that fish need to deal with. This is almost as bad as putting a Oscar in a 10 gallon tank.
But I hope this all works out for ya
And I liked the tanks look before better
But I hope this all works out for ya
And I liked the tanks look before better
-
Okiimiru - Posts: 275
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19 pm
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
My own tanks regularly go months without a water change. My current water change schedule for my tanks is "meh, when I feel like it". Whenever I measure the nitrate it's between 0 and 20 ppm (the smallest category on the test strip), regardless of how long it's been since a water change. I have so many plants growing that nitrates don't build up. I usually only do a water change at all because the water gets yellow from tannins, which I don't like. (There is no potential harm the fish by tannins; I just personally don't like yellow water.)
Here's the latest full tank photo of my tank, taken about a week ago. http://gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/Eric ... 3.jpg.html
I keep about 50 one inch long Elassoma gilberti in this 55 gallon tank. Also some guppies, currently five (not in the tank at time of photo).
As long as the nitrate never builds up to greater than 30 ppm and there isn't a slow buildup of toxin leeching into the water, I don't see why water changes are so necessary. Most people use water changes as their form of nitrate control. If nitrates are kept low by plants, water changes become optional. Again, keep in mind that toxins are a concern. Just like tannins build up, it's possible for things to leech out of tank decorations and poison the water. Thankfully growing plants absorb toxins pretty well (check out Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad for a whole chapter on the topic). So if you've got growing plants, the toxin problem becomes a non-issue, too. *shrugs* I like the Walstad method :) I'm setting up a saltwater Walstad style plant filtered tank soon :)
Link: http://forum.aquatic-gardeners.org/view ... =29&t=1429
The one thing I would say is that when I went a few months without water changes, the plant chemical warfare on one another started to be a problem. Myriophyllum aquaticum secrets phenol compounds that will kill other plants. They build up in concentration in a closed system like a tank with no water changes. At high enough concentration, you other plants can suffer. You can eventually end up with one plant species dominating over the others. That is why, in my tank with a half dozen species, I do still do some water changes. Infrequently, we're talking on bi or tri monthly sort of schedule, but yeah, I do some still. Not for the fish, but for the plants.
Here's the latest full tank photo of my tank, taken about a week ago. http://gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/Eric ... 3.jpg.html
I keep about 50 one inch long Elassoma gilberti in this 55 gallon tank. Also some guppies, currently five (not in the tank at time of photo).
As long as the nitrate never builds up to greater than 30 ppm and there isn't a slow buildup of toxin leeching into the water, I don't see why water changes are so necessary. Most people use water changes as their form of nitrate control. If nitrates are kept low by plants, water changes become optional. Again, keep in mind that toxins are a concern. Just like tannins build up, it's possible for things to leech out of tank decorations and poison the water. Thankfully growing plants absorb toxins pretty well (check out Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad for a whole chapter on the topic). So if you've got growing plants, the toxin problem becomes a non-issue, too. *shrugs* I like the Walstad method :) I'm setting up a saltwater Walstad style plant filtered tank soon :)
Link: http://forum.aquatic-gardeners.org/view ... =29&t=1429
The one thing I would say is that when I went a few months without water changes, the plant chemical warfare on one another started to be a problem. Myriophyllum aquaticum secrets phenol compounds that will kill other plants. They build up in concentration in a closed system like a tank with no water changes. At high enough concentration, you other plants can suffer. You can eventually end up with one plant species dominating over the others. That is why, in my tank with a half dozen species, I do still do some water changes. Infrequently, we're talking on bi or tri monthly sort of schedule, but yeah, I do some still. Not for the fish, but for the plants.
Last edited by Okiimiru on Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
mcfaddy: the tank is well understocked in the 55 gallon tank:
Bloodfin tetra: 2
Redtail Shark: 1
Dwarf Chain Loach: 4
Silvertip Tetra: 1
Scissortail Rasbora: 2
Black Kuhli Loach: 4
Cherry Barb: 5
Zebra Danio: 5
Neon Cardinal Tetra: 2
Green Tiger Barb: 1
Tiger Barb: 1
The reason most of the above-named fish are not in schools (as they should be) is because I am in the process of slowly turning from an all community tank to a semi-aggressive tank. I figure in about a year's time, I will have mostly semi-aggressive fish only.
The other reason the tank's liquid testing is in neutral parameters is because I make a point of having over 100 trumpet snails (only to be kept somewhat depopulated by the loaches), olive nerite snails and ramshorn snails. The snails naturally clean the tank of all leftover food debris.
In the last year, I have lost a few red platy fish due to the overly-aggressive redtail shark stressing the fish NOT because of any chemical imbalance.
The reason for a nearly all complete natural tank is simple; I figure, fish would prefer wood, rock and live plant that mimics their natural habitats than all kinds of junk as the pictures of 2008 show. The junk is more like the junk found in America's rovers like tire rims, garbage, plastic material etc...not many fish exist these types of environments. But in rivers or creeks that can be seen straight to the bottom on a clear sunny day, one will see: rocks, wood (tree roots etc) and/or live plants, and the fish excel in such environments.
So I asked myself a very simple question: if I were a fish, would I prefer to live in an area of water that has junk or wood rock live plant? It's a pretty simple equation. This is the sole reason I went as near as natural as I could. Not to please my aesthetic tastes but to please the fish only.
But we all have choices. And as I said, newbies to this hobby should never ever attempt this or else one could very well lose control of such an environment and lose all of one's fish.
As I stated, I do top off the tank, for the water evaporates about an inch or so from the top, with new water (that sat overnight), about 2 gallons a week added. So this way, the water gets shifted around with new electrolytes etc.
As for the minute changes in chemicals in the tank, well it all comes down to simple observation. One should know one's tank. The reason I look at the temperature every single day is it gives me a few moments to observe what's going on in the tank. One must make it a practice to observe the tank every single day. Fish have certain behaviors - if the fish are not acting within those certain behaviors, one can decide what measures to take.
So to end my "monologue"...observation, consistency and knowledge/experience applied makes for a stable environment.
I certainly welcome your comments; we all take the fish hobby from varied different perspectives. What may work for me will not work for you, vice versa. As long as our living species (including live plants) are healthy, what more can we ask for?
And absolutely Natalie, the pictures of the tank of 2008 was an absolute mess. I went all out in regards to the books I read. $1200.00 worth of crap. I wish I knew then what I know now...I would have bought a much bigger tank with that $1200, something like a 320 gallon, long & wide tank...but oh well, live & learn.
Bloodfin tetra: 2
Redtail Shark: 1
Dwarf Chain Loach: 4
Silvertip Tetra: 1
Scissortail Rasbora: 2
Black Kuhli Loach: 4
Cherry Barb: 5
Zebra Danio: 5
Neon Cardinal Tetra: 2
Green Tiger Barb: 1
Tiger Barb: 1
The reason most of the above-named fish are not in schools (as they should be) is because I am in the process of slowly turning from an all community tank to a semi-aggressive tank. I figure in about a year's time, I will have mostly semi-aggressive fish only.
The other reason the tank's liquid testing is in neutral parameters is because I make a point of having over 100 trumpet snails (only to be kept somewhat depopulated by the loaches), olive nerite snails and ramshorn snails. The snails naturally clean the tank of all leftover food debris.
In the last year, I have lost a few red platy fish due to the overly-aggressive redtail shark stressing the fish NOT because of any chemical imbalance.
The reason for a nearly all complete natural tank is simple; I figure, fish would prefer wood, rock and live plant that mimics their natural habitats than all kinds of junk as the pictures of 2008 show. The junk is more like the junk found in America's rovers like tire rims, garbage, plastic material etc...not many fish exist these types of environments. But in rivers or creeks that can be seen straight to the bottom on a clear sunny day, one will see: rocks, wood (tree roots etc) and/or live plants, and the fish excel in such environments.
So I asked myself a very simple question: if I were a fish, would I prefer to live in an area of water that has junk or wood rock live plant? It's a pretty simple equation. This is the sole reason I went as near as natural as I could. Not to please my aesthetic tastes but to please the fish only.
But we all have choices. And as I said, newbies to this hobby should never ever attempt this or else one could very well lose control of such an environment and lose all of one's fish.
As I stated, I do top off the tank, for the water evaporates about an inch or so from the top, with new water (that sat overnight), about 2 gallons a week added. So this way, the water gets shifted around with new electrolytes etc.
As for the minute changes in chemicals in the tank, well it all comes down to simple observation. One should know one's tank. The reason I look at the temperature every single day is it gives me a few moments to observe what's going on in the tank. One must make it a practice to observe the tank every single day. Fish have certain behaviors - if the fish are not acting within those certain behaviors, one can decide what measures to take.
So to end my "monologue"...observation, consistency and knowledge/experience applied makes for a stable environment.
I certainly welcome your comments; we all take the fish hobby from varied different perspectives. What may work for me will not work for you, vice versa. As long as our living species (including live plants) are healthy, what more can we ask for?
And absolutely Natalie, the pictures of the tank of 2008 was an absolute mess. I went all out in regards to the books I read. $1200.00 worth of crap. I wish I knew then what I know now...I would have bought a much bigger tank with that $1200, something like a 320 gallon, long & wide tank...but oh well, live & learn.
-
Okiimiru - Posts: 275
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19 pm
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
"The other reason the tank's liquid testing is in neutral parameters is because I make a point of having over 100 trumpet snails (only to be kept somewhat depopulated by the loaches), olive nerite snails and ramshorn snails. The snails naturally clean the tank of all leftover food debris."
Snails don't clean aquariums, not when you look at the big picture. They eat fish food (which would have if uneaten rotted to become ammonia) and convert it into poop, which degrades into ammonia. They just add a one or two day delay to the decay of the food. When their bodies decay when they die in your tank all that nitrogen they used to grow their tissues returns to the tank. No net nitrogen is removed from the aquarium. With plants, you actually do cut the plant tissue out of the tank when you trim the plant. Thus some nitrogen is removed from the system. Plants clean your tank. Snails don't.
The total net nitrogen into your tank comes from the protein in the fish food you add. The total net nitrogen out of the tank comes from either water changes or plant trimmings. Snails do not change the net nitrogen balance on the tank.
Accumulation = In - Out + Generation - Consumption
Nitrogen in your tank = Fish food in + Plants taken out
Snails don't clean aquariums, not when you look at the big picture. They eat fish food (which would have if uneaten rotted to become ammonia) and convert it into poop, which degrades into ammonia. They just add a one or two day delay to the decay of the food. When their bodies decay when they die in your tank all that nitrogen they used to grow their tissues returns to the tank. No net nitrogen is removed from the aquarium. With plants, you actually do cut the plant tissue out of the tank when you trim the plant. Thus some nitrogen is removed from the system. Plants clean your tank. Snails don't.
The total net nitrogen into your tank comes from the protein in the fish food you add. The total net nitrogen out of the tank comes from either water changes or plant trimmings. Snails do not change the net nitrogen balance on the tank.
Accumulation = In - Out + Generation - Consumption
Nitrogen in your tank = Fish food in + Plants taken out
Last edited by Okiimiru on Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
-
yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
Like to add one other thing:
at first, when I started this back in October 2011 (that is, no water changes), sometimes the ammonia would spike to about 1 ppm..so instead of doing a water change I would stop feeding the fish for 7 whole days, and then test again, and the ammonia would be 0
So ammonia spikes can be controlled simply by non-feeding (for the fish will feed off of whatever micro-organisms are in the tank; it gives the fish's digestive systems time to completely clean out; and the snails do the rest of the work)
at first, when I started this back in October 2011 (that is, no water changes), sometimes the ammonia would spike to about 1 ppm..so instead of doing a water change I would stop feeding the fish for 7 whole days, and then test again, and the ammonia would be 0
So ammonia spikes can be controlled simply by non-feeding (for the fish will feed off of whatever micro-organisms are in the tank; it gives the fish's digestive systems time to completely clean out; and the snails do the rest of the work)
-
Okiimiru - Posts: 275
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19 pm
Re: No Water Change In Six Months
"at first, when I started this back in October 2011 (that is, no water changes), sometimes the ammonia would spike to about 1 ppm..so instead of doing a water change I would stop feeding the fish for 7 whole days, and then test again, and the ammonia would be 0
So ammonia spikes can be controlled simply by non-feeding (for the fish will feed off of whatever micro-organisms are in the tank; it gives the fish's digestive systems time to completely clean out; and the snails do the rest of the work)"
Ammonia spikes can be controlled by two things. I wouldn't have told you to stop feeding your fish. Poor things. Anyway, those two things are:
1. Add less nitrogen
2. Remove more ammonia
You did number one, which was to add less nitrogen (which comes from protein in the fish food). Number two could be attained one of three ways:
1. Plants eat ammonium. More info: http://theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_B ... Filtration
2. Nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria convert ammonia [toxic at 1 ppm] to nitrite to nitrate [not toxic until around 30 ppm]. More info: http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_5 ... rticle.htm
3. Water changes to physically remove and dilute the ammonia.
Not feeding the fish is kinda the cruelest of the above mentioned techniques because the animals suffer from hunger.
So ammonia spikes can be controlled simply by non-feeding (for the fish will feed off of whatever micro-organisms are in the tank; it gives the fish's digestive systems time to completely clean out; and the snails do the rest of the work)"
Ammonia spikes can be controlled by two things. I wouldn't have told you to stop feeding your fish. Poor things. Anyway, those two things are:
1. Add less nitrogen
2. Remove more ammonia
You did number one, which was to add less nitrogen (which comes from protein in the fish food). Number two could be attained one of three ways:
1. Plants eat ammonium. More info: http://theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_B ... Filtration
2. Nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria convert ammonia [toxic at 1 ppm] to nitrite to nitrate [not toxic until around 30 ppm]. More info: http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_5 ... rticle.htm
3. Water changes to physically remove and dilute the ammonia.
Not feeding the fish is kinda the cruelest of the above mentioned techniques because the animals suffer from hunger.
