also one other thing, the entire point of kimber's post was she has white things in her tank water. For a few weeks, I too had white things all over the glass and driftwood everytime I did a 40% water change (if I saw fish at the surface, I would do this), so I read about it, and everything I read pointed to the fact that if water changes are done on a massive scale, that our tap water most of the time has nutrients in it, and in a newly set up tank, like kimbers (and like mine once was), it creates white fuzziness all over the tank. It takes time for a new tank to mature, once the bioload builds up or the good bacteria takes hold, the white fuzzy stuff will be less and less to the point of being no more (because the good bacteria also feeds on the nutrients, and if there are live plants, the live plants feed on the nutrients too).
So I was probably misunderstood. I was speaking to kimberhugo's white fuzzy stuff in her water column, and this usually points to more nutrients in the water than not.
miami, probably your tank is well established, so most likely, you could do a 90% water change with no problem. But kimberhugo just started on 7/29, and from what I researched, it is best to only do 50% water change at most.
But I am sure there are other sources out there that say 80% is okay too. So I guess this topic remains open to debate.
also would like to bring to your attention - even though I am no chemist or biologist, I have researched the nitrification process before getting into this hobby, and I must point out, that there is such a thing as ammonia-oxidizing bacteria and nitrite-oxidizing bacteria.
During the nitrification cycle or as commonly known to fishkeepers, the cycle or cycling the tank or new tank syndrome, the ammonia-ozidizing bacteria and the nitrite-oxidizing bactera also known as proteobacteria make way for the good bacteria, nitrate.
Ammonia is basically a bacteria, it is better known as Nitrosomonas and when nitrite turns into nitrate, the bacteria is better known as Nitrobacter. Bacteria is unicelluar microorganisms, that like peterkarig stated, attaches itself all over the surfaces of all the items in the tank (substrate, ornaments, filters, etc) or it turns into a complex bacteria mat, spreading itself out. Ammonia is a comnpound, but it is also part of the bacterial process of nitrification.
Also in a cycled tank, the ammonia and nitrite should always remain constant at 0. Nitrate should never rise above 20 ppm.
And I like debate too, so it's cool. I just hope we do not give kimberhugo so much info that she does not know what to think.
I look forward to the next bout (((smiles))) my fellow fishkeeper
Confused Newbie... can you help?
33 posts • Page 3 of 4
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gumbii - Posts: 1695
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:31 am
yashur is right... you can't do a 80% waterchange without causing some choas... the nitrification cycle is just that... a cycle... how do you expect the bacteria to live if you take out all of the nutrients at once...? it's going to starve... and you will get all kinds of problems like spikes in different categories... or even a re-cycle, not a mini cycle, but a full cycle...
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miami754 - Posts: 373
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:18 am
Yeah, I get your points, but I am just saying that the belief that large water changes kill your biological filter is incorrect. I guess we will just agree to disagree. I am well aware of nutrients and everything and I understand exactly what you are saying, but I just disagree.
You also must be more careful in your language. In NO way is ammonia basically a bacteria. It is a chemical compound. The bacteria you mention CONVERT the various compounds (example, ammonia to nitrite). They themselves are not the actual compounds. I know you do alot of reading, but you have to understand this as you progress. The bacteria are not the compounds. The bacteria convert the various compounds into other compounds.
So, I guess we will just agree to disagree on the overall topic, but you really should be more careful with your language when giving advice. It will give beginners the wrong idea of what is actually happening in their tanks.
You also must be more careful in your language. In NO way is ammonia basically a bacteria. It is a chemical compound. The bacteria you mention CONVERT the various compounds (example, ammonia to nitrite). They themselves are not the actual compounds. I know you do alot of reading, but you have to understand this as you progress. The bacteria are not the compounds. The bacteria convert the various compounds into other compounds.
So, I guess we will just agree to disagree on the overall topic, but you really should be more careful with your language when giving advice. It will give beginners the wrong idea of what is actually happening in their tanks.
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miami754 - Posts: 373
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:18 am
Gumbii, go try it. I am telling you - it just doesn't happen. It is one of the largest misconceptions in the hobby. I have been doing it for years as do many of the people I talk to and never once have I had more than a several hour mini-cycle.
I do agree that repeatedly doing it as your maintanence schedule would wreak havoc on your tank, but doing it every once in a while is fine.
Also, as long as you don't mix a 80% change with crazy vacuuming, your bacteria will have more than enough nutrients to survive. I said previously that combining the two would be bad.
I do agree that repeatedly doing it as your maintanence schedule would wreak havoc on your tank, but doing it every once in a while is fine.
Also, as long as you don't mix a 80% change with crazy vacuuming, your bacteria will have more than enough nutrients to survive. I said previously that combining the two would be bad.
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gumbii - Posts: 1695
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:31 am
i do 80-100% water changes all the time in my tanks... i get cycles... maybe because my tanks are heavily stocked, and are large tanks... it's not instant, but i do get a cycle... it just doesn't work out that way... the bacteria has to die... even when you do a smaller water change, you are starving the bacteria of thier nutrients and food... there is always die off...
it also needs time to reproduce, and replace what has been lost...
it also needs time to reproduce, and replace what has been lost...
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miami754 - Posts: 373
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:18 am
We will just agree to disagree. Both sides have made their case and people can just do what they want. It has been good discussing this topic with both of you.
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gumbii - Posts: 1695
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:31 am
no i wont...
if this subject ever comes up again, i will stand behind my arguments and fight for them...
but i respect you miami... seriously... carry on...
remember that every tank is setup different, and every person handles thier tanks differntly... so yeah...
if this subject ever comes up again, i will stand behind my arguments and fight for them...
but i respect you miami... seriously... carry on...
remember that every tank is setup different, and every person handles thier tanks differntly... so yeah...
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Peterkarig3210 - Posts: 1980
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:04 am
I've also read that water changes don't wash away the bacteria.
The gravel cleaning will actually cause the bacteria to grow better as the gunk won't be smothering it anymore esp if you have an undergravel filter. These bacteria live as a slimy coating on the surfaces and is hard to wash off. As long as you still have fish and are feeding them I don't see why there should be any spikes or cycle issues. It's rinsing in chlorinated water, the removal of fish and absense of feeding, or smothering it with particulate gunk that can kill bacteria.
The gravel cleaning will actually cause the bacteria to grow better as the gunk won't be smothering it anymore esp if you have an undergravel filter. These bacteria live as a slimy coating on the surfaces and is hard to wash off. As long as you still have fish and are feeding them I don't see why there should be any spikes or cycle issues. It's rinsing in chlorinated water, the removal of fish and absense of feeding, or smothering it with particulate gunk that can kill bacteria.
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
the reason we water change is to reduce nitrite, ammonia and nitrate levels...why? because the nitrite, ammonia and nitrates are in the water or water column. Now I hope that we are aware that nitrates are considered the good bacteria. If we take out 80% of the water, we take out huge amounts of nitrates.
Now I agree that nitrate is all over everything in the tank, which is good. But we keep forgeting a simple thing here. the person who began this post, kimberhugo stated she began her tank on July 29, 2008. When she posted this thread, it was only 2 weeks into the cycling of the tank.
Now I can understand if she did 20% water changes every other day or every 3 days or what have you. But to take out 80% of the water at one time is not good for a tank that is cycling (even if it be for a large amount of salt, she wanted to dillute the salt in the tank...she could have gotten the salt out of the tank with 20% water changes every other day).
To vacuum deep into the gravel while cycling a tank especially two weeks into the cycling will cause absolute chaos. Any good bacteria that may be there, will be destroyed. Again, DESTROYED!!!!!!
If the tank was like 4 or 6 weeks cycling, with zero nitrite and zero ammonia, and with a nitrate level at 20 ppm or below and a low ph like around 7.0 to 7.4, okay, possibly a deep gravel cleaning. But never 2 weeks into cycling.
There was a reason for the ich on her fish in the first place. Probably overfeeding and bad filtration. Also, the fish kimberhugo used were not hardy fish. So her cycling from the get go was way off, the fish she had in the tank was less immune to ward off bacteria or stress. Some fish do very well in cycling, particularly zebra danios and cherry barbs as long as the water quality is monitored every day.
For instance, for the first 3 weeks of my cycling my tank I took water tests every day. On Mondays, before a water change I'd water test; then right before I shut the lights off, I would take another water test to see if the water change worked (it always did). Then on Thursday, I'd do another 10% water change (thereby the tabnk was water changed a total of 20%). I can promise you that kimberhugo did no water tests during the first 2 weeks because if she did she would have prevented the ich problem.
peterkarig, you know me pal, I always agree with you in these posts, but this time pal, I completely disagree with you. 80% water change spread out over a week's time, fine in a 2 week old cycling freshwater fish tank with no plants; 80% all at once is serious problems
just (fish) food for thought (((smiles))))
Now I agree that nitrate is all over everything in the tank, which is good. But we keep forgeting a simple thing here. the person who began this post, kimberhugo stated she began her tank on July 29, 2008. When she posted this thread, it was only 2 weeks into the cycling of the tank.
Now I can understand if she did 20% water changes every other day or every 3 days or what have you. But to take out 80% of the water at one time is not good for a tank that is cycling (even if it be for a large amount of salt, she wanted to dillute the salt in the tank...she could have gotten the salt out of the tank with 20% water changes every other day).
To vacuum deep into the gravel while cycling a tank especially two weeks into the cycling will cause absolute chaos. Any good bacteria that may be there, will be destroyed. Again, DESTROYED!!!!!!
If the tank was like 4 or 6 weeks cycling, with zero nitrite and zero ammonia, and with a nitrate level at 20 ppm or below and a low ph like around 7.0 to 7.4, okay, possibly a deep gravel cleaning. But never 2 weeks into cycling.
There was a reason for the ich on her fish in the first place. Probably overfeeding and bad filtration. Also, the fish kimberhugo used were not hardy fish. So her cycling from the get go was way off, the fish she had in the tank was less immune to ward off bacteria or stress. Some fish do very well in cycling, particularly zebra danios and cherry barbs as long as the water quality is monitored every day.
For instance, for the first 3 weeks of my cycling my tank I took water tests every day. On Mondays, before a water change I'd water test; then right before I shut the lights off, I would take another water test to see if the water change worked (it always did). Then on Thursday, I'd do another 10% water change (thereby the tabnk was water changed a total of 20%). I can promise you that kimberhugo did no water tests during the first 2 weeks because if she did she would have prevented the ich problem.
peterkarig, you know me pal, I always agree with you in these posts, but this time pal, I completely disagree with you. 80% water change spread out over a week's time, fine in a 2 week old cycling freshwater fish tank with no plants; 80% all at once is serious problems
just (fish) food for thought (((smiles))))
