Confused Newbie... can you help?

33 posts • Page 2 of 4

Discuss all topics related to freshwater and planted tanks.


kimberhugo
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:27 am

by kimberhugo

i want to thank everyone for their input
yesterday we performed the 80% water change and vaccumed the gravel yesterday
today the fish seem to be moving around a bit better and the water looks really clear
pH seems to have come down a little. today i bought a test kit for amonia and it is coming down as well, compared to what it was when they tested it at the petshop

However, I have a new question...
there are little white particles swirling around in the tank...
any ideas?
just noticed this today, wasn't a prior problem

thanks again


a1k8t31524
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 5:10 am

by a1k8t31524

hmm...i dunno


yasherkoach
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm

by yasherkoach

most do a 50% water change...beings you did a 80% water change, you may have disrupted any good bacteria in the tank (good bacteria brings down ammonia and nitrite to 0, you must have a constant 0 in the water; nitrate must be 20 and below), when this happens, the good bacteria cannot keep up with the nutrients in the water (water treatment plants add nutrients to our tap water), and what happens is, a white fuzzy substance adheres to the surfaces in the tank as well as in the water column or the water itself. This does not harm the fish or the plants. In a few days, it should go away. As your good bacteria gains its foothold again, the water will clear because the bacteria will consume the nutrients or if you have live plants, the plants will consume it too.

I used to get this all the time, now that my tank is very close to an established tank, I do not have this problem anymore.

On the other hand, after a good vacuum, you could have released white worms into the water column. These white worms are harmless. There is a way to get rid of the white worms. First you need to get all the fish out of the tank. You need to raise the temperature in the tank to about 95 F. The hot water will kill off the worms. After several hours you can put your fish back in.

In order to avoid this type of problem, you need a better filtration system. I have a 55 gallon freshwater tank. I have 2 filters (Marineland Penguin Bio-Wheel Filter 200, thereby giving me 400 gph). You need to either get a better filter or get another filter.

I do not know the size of your tank, but if it 29 gallons or over, best to go with 2 filters. You will not have this problem again.

You should not overfeed for overfeeding can produce such white particles or worms.

But I am pretty sure it is not white worms, instead it is the other scenerio I gave you. It will clear.

Next time you change water, on a weekly basis, 20-25% plus vacuum; anytime you do a large water change like when there is an illness or you find your fish struggling for air at the surface, you should only do about 50% so you don't toss out all the good bacteria.

I would give a few days (3-5 days) to see if the water clears, if it does not, then you probably have white worms.

If you have any questions or comments, I am here to help as I am sure others can. One of the members by the name of Peterkarig is very knowledgeable in this area. I am sure he can help you too.

hope this helps


miami754
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:18 am

by miami754

Actually the whole thing about large water changes destroying your biological filter is a myth. Very few bacteria actually live in the water column. This is why it does you no good to move water from an established tank into a new tank to cycle it. Instead you move things like rocks, substrate, filter pads, etc. that possess tons of the nitrifying bacteria.

Now, he could have started a mini-cycle if he did an 80% water change AND washed the filter pads in non-tank water for instance or if he did an 80% water change and vacuumed the substrate. Also, you can't leave the filter pads, rocks, decor out of the water for too long so it is important to refill the 80% fairly quickly (don't let the tank sit around all day at the reduced volume). But, it needs to be pointed out that an 80% water change by itself does not destroy your biological colonies. The 80% new water you put in will quickly be cycled by the bacteria on the various surfaces in your tank. You may see a very quick spike if you measured parameters immediately after the water change, but it would disappear very quickly.

Anyway, just wanted to point this out. This is a common misconception among people and is the justification for many people not doing water changes during the cycling process (they think they are removing beneficial bacteria). In actuality, you should do enough water changes during a cycle to keep your spikes of ammonia and nitrite below 1 ppm. I do every other day water changes during the cycling period.


yasherkoach
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm

by yasherkoach

maimi, you are right about bacteria not living in the water; but bacteria do live in the gravel and coupled with not enough filtration will result in removing good bacteria

I remove 30% each week. What concerned me about her post was after she vacuumed the gravel, if she vacuumed the gravel too much she may have vacuumed out the good bacteria.

There is no need to water change 80%; 50% is good enough. The main point in water changing a mass amount of water is to dilute the nitrite, ammonia, to get rid of the bad bacteria. Ammonia and nitrite live so to speak in the wtaer column or the water itself. You only need to do a good 50% at most to get the bad bacteria out or else any good nutrients in the water column will be thrown out.

A tank must have some nutrient levels in the water column, just not too much like kimberhugo has. She has too much nutrients in it, to take out 50% is plenty. Nutrients ARE NOT nitrite and ammonia. Nutrients are phosphate, iron, calcium, oxygen, etc (also the gas exchange at the surface produces oxygen in the water column which fish thereby breathe from...if too much water is taken out, there will be less oxygen)

So I beg to differ with your conclusion on this miami. I do agree good bacteria doe snot live in the water column, I absolutely agree with this. But nutrients do, and I do not want kimberhugo to throw out all the nutrients. Also, by vacuuming too deeply she may vacuum out too much good bacteria considering this is a new tank


miami754
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:18 am

by miami754

I agree with your conclusion on too deep of vacuuming, but not the rest. When you do a water change, you are not getting rid of bad bacteria. Ammonia and nitrite are compounds, not bacteria. In a cycled tank, you should have a minimal amount of these anyways. What you are controlling with water changes is the nitrates that slowly creep up over time. You are also controlling things such as kH which decrease over time as well. Now I agree that with not enough water changes, ammonia and nitrites can creep back up, but you are not removing them when you do a water change. You are simply keeping the build up of nutrients, debris, and waste under control.

Doing a water change that large is perfectly fine as long as they didn't go ape **** with the vacuuming. There really is no difference between an 80% and a 50% in terms of messing with your biological filter with all other variables being the same.

Also, I disagree with the fact that you would kill fish by removing too many nutrients with a water change. This simply is not true. Also, the oxygen thing is simply not true as well. If you have a half way decent current going in your tank and the surface tension is being broken then any oxygen depletion is minimal. I have never in all of my life heard of a fish suffocating from a water change.

I think you may have a slightly misinformed view of what is going on in a tank. I am not trying to be rude at all and I deeply apologize if you take it this way, but I know you are new to the hobby and I just think you may be misinformed on several things.

It is always fun to have a debate though and I appreciate your enthusiasm for the hobby.

Again, I am not saying that a 50% change would not have been adequate - it probably would have been just fine, but I am trying to fight this common misconception about large water changes. I do 40% changes weekly and then about every month and a half I will do a 70% change or so. Also, I have had to do 80% changes in the past to remove medications (along with the help of carbon). These changes simply do not destroy your biological filter. I used to test after these because I was new and worried, but it simply does not happen.


Tmercier834747
 
Posts: 887
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:33 pm

by Tmercier834747

Not to go nuts here but I think the only reason he/she was doing an 80% water change is because he/she was treating ich with way too much aquarium salt and the LFS employee advised a drastic water change to counteract the severe over-addition of aquarium salt. Probably one of the few things I've noticed to come from an LFS employee that was useful..if I read things right.


miami754
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:18 am

by miami754

Yeah, I'm not really commenting on his treatment. I was more commenting on what I thought were incorrect statements later in the post. That's all.


Peterkarig3210
 
Posts: 1980
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:04 am

by Peterkarig3210

I looked up nitrafying and ammonia bacteria and I think the indiviual bacteriums live on surfaces in a slime matrix. I'm still researching how good sand filters, where the water is forced up though the sand, realy are.

This makes it so peices the sand are always bumping into other, and instead of this knocking the bacteria off they are actually being cleaned so that gunk doesn't suffocate the bacteria.


yasherkoach
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm

by yasherkoach

All I am saying is, it is best not to do that big of a water change, 50% is plenty to get rid of the ammonia and nitrite, nitrate but leave enough of the nutrients behind.

This was my only point. What I disagreed with you on miami is that doing a 80% water change is a no no. 50% is plenty enough. And on a regular basis, 20-25% per week is plenty enough.

I hope you understand what I am typing. Unless you have no idea about nutrients being in the water column, so maybe this is the reason you are a little confused.

I hope this clears matters up.
Last edited by yasherkoach on Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

Confused Newbie... can you help?

33 posts • Page 2 of 4

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