Nowhere in nature will you find so many fish in such a small amount of water. Even our most lightly stocked tanks can't compare with the amount of water per fish in the ocean, or the rivers and lakes of the world. You can't compare a fish tank, which is a completely unnatural condition to a natural body of water.
Another point: think about a lake. Not only is it much more lightly stocked than our fish tanks, but the water is constantly being renewed. Lakes are fed by rivers and snow melt. Rivers flow from lakes. Rain falls. Water evaporates. Honestly, it seems to me that doing water changes is more "natural" than NOT doing water changes. In nature, water doesn't just sit there and stagnate for months on end!
NO NEED TO WATER CHANGE EVER AGAIN
21 posts • Page 1 of 3
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
for starters, like I said, I add about 2 gallons of fresh water each week to the tank for the water does evaporate
second, last year, mzhantsche stated: "Thats what i like about the people on this site. trying different ideas. Good luck Yasher. Ill be checking your updates to see the progress. I suspect the ammonia will get out of control too. We should take a guess on how long it will take. I say 13 days." on Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:43 am GMT
It's been over one year without filtration and lighting except for natural sunlight...during the entire year, I only lost 6 fish (all platys because the redtail shark stressed them out)
so we will see if I am right or not, come November 2012, if I do prove that no water changes is possible, and the fish are fine and the chemicals tested: ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are within their ranges (that is, 0, 0, 40), then I am sure my point will be well taken and understood
Before October 2011, I water changed 20% each week for over three years - then I spoke with a marine biologist who said, one needs only change the water every 6 weeks and only if the ammonia and nitrite levels rise...so I took it a step further, I went passed the 6 weeks - one week I did not feed, the ammonia and nitrite levels came back down to 0/0 without a water change...so explain to me Natalie or Alasse, how could this have happened without a water change? Because I permitted the natural process to occur.
Now I understand rivers etc constantly replenish themselves by having the water never remain stagnant - even swamps get replenished by rainfall - one of the reasons I place 2 gallons of water into the tank each week - but we are somehow forgetting a very basic fact on fish keeping: if ammonia, nitrite are 0, and nitrate remains 40 ppm and under, isn't this all that matters to have a healthy tank?
It's simple stuff guys - I'm not looking for an excuse to not water change; but if the theory is practical, which so far it is, why disrupt a natural process by human intervention?
as a side note: Dan, I do have live plants which keep the nitrates in check...but nitrates, even at 40 ppm is not toxic...if over 50-80 ppm, the fish stress, over 80 ppm, usually the fish will die...hope this answers your question (in other words, nitrates don't have to be at 0 like ammonia and nitrite)
Natalie and Alasse, come November 2012, when my stance is proven right...do I get a kiss on each cheek from the both of you (((smiles)))
second, last year, mzhantsche stated: "Thats what i like about the people on this site. trying different ideas. Good luck Yasher. Ill be checking your updates to see the progress. I suspect the ammonia will get out of control too. We should take a guess on how long it will take. I say 13 days." on Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:43 am GMT
It's been over one year without filtration and lighting except for natural sunlight...during the entire year, I only lost 6 fish (all platys because the redtail shark stressed them out)
so we will see if I am right or not, come November 2012, if I do prove that no water changes is possible, and the fish are fine and the chemicals tested: ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are within their ranges (that is, 0, 0, 40), then I am sure my point will be well taken and understood
Before October 2011, I water changed 20% each week for over three years - then I spoke with a marine biologist who said, one needs only change the water every 6 weeks and only if the ammonia and nitrite levels rise...so I took it a step further, I went passed the 6 weeks - one week I did not feed, the ammonia and nitrite levels came back down to 0/0 without a water change...so explain to me Natalie or Alasse, how could this have happened without a water change? Because I permitted the natural process to occur.
Now I understand rivers etc constantly replenish themselves by having the water never remain stagnant - even swamps get replenished by rainfall - one of the reasons I place 2 gallons of water into the tank each week - but we are somehow forgetting a very basic fact on fish keeping: if ammonia, nitrite are 0, and nitrate remains 40 ppm and under, isn't this all that matters to have a healthy tank?
It's simple stuff guys - I'm not looking for an excuse to not water change; but if the theory is practical, which so far it is, why disrupt a natural process by human intervention?
as a side note: Dan, I do have live plants which keep the nitrates in check...but nitrates, even at 40 ppm is not toxic...if over 50-80 ppm, the fish stress, over 80 ppm, usually the fish will die...hope this answers your question (in other words, nitrates don't have to be at 0 like ammonia and nitrite)
Natalie and Alasse, come November 2012, when my stance is proven right...do I get a kiss on each cheek from the both of you (((smiles)))
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Alasse - Posts: 993
- Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 5:35 am
- Location: QLD Australia
Your adding 2 gallons of fresh water to a tank that has evaporated water out, notice i said evaporated WATER. The nasties are still in there, they do NOT evaporate out.
If ya read what i stated Yasher....i dont do waterchanges until around the 8-12 weeks stage, so 6 weeks is nothing. Plants are great at keeping things nice for longer. I do not leave my unplanted tanks longer than 8 weeks, or i will get problems, there is nothing to neutralise the nitrate
"but we are somehow forgetting a very basic fact on fish keeping: if ammonia, nitrite are 0, and nitrate remains 40 ppm and under, isn't this all that matters to have a healthy tank?"
Errrr there is more to a tank than ammonia, nitrate and nitrite, as i also stated in my posts (obviously you have your man eyes in today *L*) Just because Stats are within range does not mean the tank is necessarily healthy thats for sure. Electrolytes, etc are other things needed to be in good levels for the tank to be healthy
I'll think about it *LOL* But i dont think i'm gonna need to worry about it.
If ya read what i stated Yasher....i dont do waterchanges until around the 8-12 weeks stage, so 6 weeks is nothing. Plants are great at keeping things nice for longer. I do not leave my unplanted tanks longer than 8 weeks, or i will get problems, there is nothing to neutralise the nitrate
"but we are somehow forgetting a very basic fact on fish keeping: if ammonia, nitrite are 0, and nitrate remains 40 ppm and under, isn't this all that matters to have a healthy tank?"
Errrr there is more to a tank than ammonia, nitrate and nitrite, as i also stated in my posts (obviously you have your man eyes in today *L*) Just because Stats are within range does not mean the tank is necessarily healthy thats for sure. Electrolytes, etc are other things needed to be in good levels for the tank to be healthy
I'll think about it *LOL* But i dont think i'm gonna need to worry about it.
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natalie265 - Site Admin
- Posts: 746
- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:48 pm
Ha ha, well at least you said kiss your cheek and not kiss your ***. But i agree with alasse on this one. I think the fact that your ammonia, nitrate and nitrite are at acceptable levels speaks well of your fish keeping talent, but there is more to water quality than just that.
Fish are extremely resilient and adaptable. So if your fish are still surviving after a year, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are thriving. But i will be surprised if there are no obvious ill effects at a years time. And i will give you a virtual kiss on the cheek if i am wrong. But i'm not going to stop doing water changes.
Fish are extremely resilient and adaptable. So if your fish are still surviving after a year, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are thriving. But i will be surprised if there are no obvious ill effects at a years time. And i will give you a virtual kiss on the cheek if i am wrong. But i'm not going to stop doing water changes.
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
like I said, we make our own choices with the tanks...I respect yours
a virtual kiss will be gladly appreciated (((smiles)))
a virtual kiss will be gladly appreciated (((smiles)))
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esparzar1 - Posts: 164
- Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:31 pm
Simply amazing yasher! I've been following your threads for a while. It's very impressive what you have done to create such a natural atmosphere! Keep up the great work and keep us updated!!!!!
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
Re: NO NEED TO WATER CHANGE EVER AGAIN
For starters, you need to read the entire post under the heading: No Water Change In Six Months that I wrote. Actually it's 16 months since the last water change.
But what you people fail to realize, the tank automatically evaporates its waters, so I place in chemical-free water in the tank each week, approximately 3-4 gallons of fresh new water. If you add that up, it amounts to about 36 to 48 gallons a year. In the 55 gallon tank, the tank recycles itself naturally once (at least) fully each year. Because the tank is open at the top (or no fluorescent instead only natural sunlight) the water evaporates, and I find during the winter, when the heater is raised, the water evaporates even more so.
So the tank does recycle itself naturally.
As for current, I do have two bubble disks in the tank which provide plenty current for the stream/river fish in the tank; second, the bubbles that explode at the top or on the water surface provide plenty oxygen.
Lately, now that I have had the tank for nearly 5 years now, and I observe the inhabitants to the point that I know when there is a problem - and by the way, I have not had a fish death in 17 weeks; the last fish death was caused by the redtail shark irritating one of the zebra danios - so I have cut back on the liquid tests for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to every 6 weeks to 2 months. The last time I tested - I keep a daily log on the tank - January 27, 2013, temperature: 78-82, ammonia: 0; nitrite: 0; and nitrate: 20. The testings are well within normal.
So your assumption without actual experience in this type of natural ecosystem is ill-founded. To call it "nonsense" is absurd without actual experience in this type of ecosystem. In fact, anyone who believes what I have been doing is stupid or morally wrong, those ideas or judgments are ill-founded for they are not based on actual experience.
As I asked once before on this web site and another one - I have yet to have anyone explain otherwise - if we use liquid test kits to test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, and our tests show the tank is registering normally, then the liquid tests were accurate or just fine and dandy. On the other hand, when I use the same liquid tests, I obtain the same normal results, but because I have an all natural ecosystem, something is wrong with the tank.....I have yet to have someone make heads or tails out of this paradox. In my humble opinion, it is simply a matter of ego....I AM RIGHT!
But what you people fail to realize, the tank automatically evaporates its waters, so I place in chemical-free water in the tank each week, approximately 3-4 gallons of fresh new water. If you add that up, it amounts to about 36 to 48 gallons a year. In the 55 gallon tank, the tank recycles itself naturally once (at least) fully each year. Because the tank is open at the top (or no fluorescent instead only natural sunlight) the water evaporates, and I find during the winter, when the heater is raised, the water evaporates even more so.
So the tank does recycle itself naturally.
As for current, I do have two bubble disks in the tank which provide plenty current for the stream/river fish in the tank; second, the bubbles that explode at the top or on the water surface provide plenty oxygen.
Lately, now that I have had the tank for nearly 5 years now, and I observe the inhabitants to the point that I know when there is a problem - and by the way, I have not had a fish death in 17 weeks; the last fish death was caused by the redtail shark irritating one of the zebra danios - so I have cut back on the liquid tests for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to every 6 weeks to 2 months. The last time I tested - I keep a daily log on the tank - January 27, 2013, temperature: 78-82, ammonia: 0; nitrite: 0; and nitrate: 20. The testings are well within normal.
So your assumption without actual experience in this type of natural ecosystem is ill-founded. To call it "nonsense" is absurd without actual experience in this type of ecosystem. In fact, anyone who believes what I have been doing is stupid or morally wrong, those ideas or judgments are ill-founded for they are not based on actual experience.
As I asked once before on this web site and another one - I have yet to have anyone explain otherwise - if we use liquid test kits to test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, and our tests show the tank is registering normally, then the liquid tests were accurate or just fine and dandy. On the other hand, when I use the same liquid tests, I obtain the same normal results, but because I have an all natural ecosystem, something is wrong with the tank.....I have yet to have someone make heads or tails out of this paradox. In my humble opinion, it is simply a matter of ego....I AM RIGHT!
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benfoster1977 - Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:47 pm
Re: NO NEED TO WATER CHANGE EVER AGAIN
Your wrong. how do you know exactly why your fish died. did it tell you it was getting stressed by someone else? if you did water changes, maybe the fish could deal with the additional stress the other fish are putting on it.
You say you havent lost a fish in 17 weeks... is that good? I have a saltwater tank. 12 fish, including multiple dwarfs and tangs. I havent lost a fish in over 2 years. Why? water changes.
to say it can be done, is one thing. you can marry your sister. it can be done, but should you?
You say you havent lost a fish in 17 weeks... is that good? I have a saltwater tank. 12 fish, including multiple dwarfs and tangs. I havent lost a fish in over 2 years. Why? water changes.
to say it can be done, is one thing. you can marry your sister. it can be done, but should you?
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kbakken - Posts: 1
- Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:05 pm
Re: NO NEED TO WATER CHANGE EVER AGAIN
I agree with no water changes. I have a beautiful 75gal freshwater tank and have never done a water change since I set the tank up a year ago. I do add around 7 to 9 gal of water weekly due to the water evaporation. My fish are healthy and active.
I do add good bacteria to the tank every 8 wks and add chlorine/ammonia killer when adding the water replacement wkly is all. I have always believed if the tank is well balanced with bacteria, fish, bottom feeders etc the tank can pretty much maintain itself.
Did the same time years ago with a 150 and 75 gal.
I do add good bacteria to the tank every 8 wks and add chlorine/ammonia killer when adding the water replacement wkly is all. I have always believed if the tank is well balanced with bacteria, fish, bottom feeders etc the tank can pretty much maintain itself.
Did the same time years ago with a 150 and 75 gal.
