Ich treatment not progressing as expected - please advise...

12 posts • Page 1 of 2

Discuss all topics related to freshwater and planted tanks.


woofwoofgrrl
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:05 pm

Ich treatment not progressing as expected - please advise...

by woofwoofgrrl

My 3 year old 10 gallon freshwater tank has a case of the ich's. I raised my temp to 80degF and started treating with Tetra Lifeguard All-in-one treatment on Monday. The active ingredient is 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone.

I've been monitoring my chemistry with the API Freshwater Master Test Kit and on Wednesday I had .5ppm ammonia and really high akalinity so I did a 25% change and have been monitoring it and doing 25% changes thurs and this morning as well since the ammonia keeps climbing to .5 ppm in the morning. My alkalinity was high again this AM too. When I started the treatment I took out the carbon bio-bag filter out of my tetra filter assembly and left just the sponge medium so I guess I really haven't had any physical filtering for the last four days. This morning after some research I realized I should probably have the biobag minus the carbon in there so I put that in this morning. I'm hoping that putting physical filtering back will help with the ammonia levels. I've also been adding PH down to my tank to try to bring the alkalinity down. Our water is naturally REALLY hard so it's been a challenge. Also I have been using 5ml of Tetra Aquasafe water conditioner with each change.
The treatment is a 5 day treatment and so far the spots have not fully dropped of my fish like I thought they would.
In the tank I have a zebra danio that seems unaffected; a platy that looks terrible - slimy skin, clamped fins and white spots, he's mostly lurking under a plant but comes out to eat; a black skirt tetra that has white spots and serious fin deterioration but is looking better, a pink tetra that has a few white spots but seems otherwise fine, and a pleco that has white spots but otherwise seems ok.

So here are my questions -
1) will the physical filter media help my ammonia levels even without the carbon?
2) what should I expect to see as the ich treatment progresses? Today is day 5 and I'm not convinced it's working.
3) how can I get my PH down and keep it down?

Thanks!!!


yasherkoach
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm

by yasherkoach

trash all the chemicals used...complete garbage

raise the temperature slowly to 85 (better even at 89) via your heater...don't worry, the fish in your tank can handle up to 90 degrees for a period of time

next drop the water surface to about 2 inches from the top, if you have a Marineland Penguin Bio-Wheel Filter system, then the water crashing into the water surface will create enough agitation to cause more oxygen (warmer water decreases oxygen levels), understand? if not, get a air pump with a split valve, get two air stones and place them just about an inch from the water surface, this too will cause surface agitation

next disregard the idea that the temperature must be at a high degree for 5 days, won't work...you need to keep the water temperature at 85 plus for no less than 14 days/2 weeks...then after 2 weeks, slowly lower the temperature back to normal (should be about 78-82 for the fish you have)

next get some aquarium salt (only AQUARIUM salt) and add 2 tablespoons of the salt after your water change - for a 10 gallon tank, let's say on Monday you take out 25% or about 2 gallons of water, after you add the salt...then on Thursday you do the same thing

key to this natural approach to killing off ich in the tank is, higher temperatures will slow down the ich's natural process of reproduction and the salt will literally kill any ich that is swimming about in the tank before it finds a host (that is, a fish)...ich needs a host to live, the ich lives in the gravel, if the ich does not find a host within 3 days it will die...the salt will kill it before it begins its process right in the gravel and/or in the water column before it reaches a host, understand?

leave the filters alone...put everything back into the filter boxes...feed as normal...give it a good 14 days, and the ich will have all disappeared

as a necessary precaution, you may want to keep the temperature at about 80 and add aquarium salt every week, say about 1 or 2 tablespoons for about one month...then everything will be back to normal

on the note of ph...high ph is more harmless than low ph...most fish, like yours, will be able to tolerate high ph as long as it is not above 8.2...anything above 8.2 is not good though there are some fish that can tolerate 9.0 ph, but they're rare

let us know how it goes


yasherkoach
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm

by yasherkoach

like to add one thing though...on the pleco - unsure what kind, will help if I knew - most plecos get very long, like about one foot in length...so you may want to transfer him/her to a larger tank, say a good 55 gallon someday or trade the fish at a pet store for a few other smaller fish...try to always think in terms of adult size length when purchasing fish

(((Just a thought)))


woofwoofgrrl
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:05 pm

by woofwoofgrrl

Thanks! I'm raising the temp as I write. I'll pick up some aquarium salt tomorrow. So I put in 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons with my next water change. For the following water change do I put in another 2 tablespoons or just enough salt to compensate for the amount of water I'm changing out? Basically my question is how do I keep the water from getting too salty?

I have a 12 inch air stone in there, so I think we're set for aeration with the higher temp.
My ammonia went up to .5ppm again during the day. So I did a 25% water change this evening. I'll check again in the AM. Is the ich treatment I used messing with my biological filter? I'm concerned because, if I understand things correctly, the higher temp and current PH (7.6ish) makes the ammonia more toxic, correct?

My pleco looks very much like the bristle nose catfish (ancistrus cirrhosus).

Any suggestions for my high PH problem? The PH down doesn't seem to help much, is there a better solution?
Thanks!


yasherkoach
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm

by yasherkoach

first thing to know is salt never evaporates from the tank, reason to do a water change, then add the aquarium salt, do it again in a few days...salt is very good for fish, so do not worry if it is too much plus this is the only real or natural way to kill off the ich

.5 ppm is no big deal...if it went up to 1.0 ppm, then yes, a problem...but the reason your ammonia went up was you took out the good bacteria in the filter media...once you put all the media back into the filter box, in a few days after feedings and fish poop, the ammonia will go back down to zero

no, higher temperature, added salt and ph will not make it more toxic

just do as I instructed and your tank will be rid of ich in two weeks...now if any fish right now has a severe bout of ich, it may be too late, but once you begin the process as pointed out above, any fish that is about to get it will not get it

let me know how it goes


yasherkoach
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm

by yasherkoach

on the ph down...avoid all chemicals except for Prime (use this in your water change)...problem with ph down is it is only a bandaid, it does not solve the problem, only helps a little...worse chemical to play with is ph...let me tell you something, a stable ph is better than one that fluctuates all over the place...drastic changes in a tank is what stresses and can kill a fish...so it is okay to have a stable constant high ph level, say about 8.2 or 8.0 than have an 8.2 ph then add ph down and it drops to 7.0 ph then in a week or so it goes back up to 8.2 and the whole cycle repeats itself, understand?

for instance, I have cardinal tetras that prefer a lower ph...whereas the tap water tests at 7.8 ph, yet the fish are okay because most freshwater fish are very tolerant of chemical levels whereas saltwater fish are much more sensitive to chemicals

so don't fret, believe me you, just do the higher temperature and salt...get rid of all chemicals (except for Prime) and do your 25% water changes each week, and you'll be fine


woofwoofgrrl
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:05 pm

by woofwoofgrrl

I lost the platy today. :( Hopefully I didn't upset it to much when I changed the water today - I vacuumed the gravel really well and added the salt. The platy was looking pretty sad - it was slimy looking, and had a humped back - so I guess I'm not surprised. After the water change my chemistry was between .25-.5ppm ammonia, 10ppm nitrates, no nitrites, ph over 7.6 (i need to test high range ph and see where it really lies).

This episode of ich showed up a few weeks after I added 3 fish (the tetras and pleco) to the tank from a supposedly reputable LFS. I had 4 fish in the tank and I added the 3 new fish. One died shortly after the addition of the new fish, another died just before the ich showed up, and the platy was the third death. Is that a sign that I should avoid this store in the future, or is ich just one of the hazards of having fish? I seem to have a terrible time adding fish, I can never get ahead!


Alasse
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 5:35 am
Location: QLD Australia

by Alasse

Salt doesnt kill ich actually. What it does is irritate the fish making it produce a thinker slime coating that the ich have difficuly penetrating to safety. Ich can only be killed when not on the fish itself.

If you have a second tank that is bare (quarantine/hospital tank), more them to that and treat there. Leave the original tank alone, just drop some flakes or such in every few days to kee it cycled, the ich will die in there as they will no longer have a host.

Personally i just use a store bought ich treatment, use as directed, it causes no damage to your cycle, filtration or such. I raise the temp, treat when the product says to, so easy. Mind you i have not had any illnesses for 10+yrs

Please dont much with your PH, it weakens the fish and then they are very susceptable to things such as ich. Ich is a hazard of owning fish i'm afraid. When i am purchasing fish, i observe the tanks for a few days. I know what day my lfs has fish arrive, i never buy that day, i wait 3 days, observe, then buy.

Oh and you are definately correct in that higher temps and higher PH equals ammonia being more toxic. Do a google search on it :)


yasherkoach
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm

by yasherkoach

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/ar ... 88601.html

if you read to the 4th paragraph, you will see this source backs up my own experience with heat & salt treatment valid...salt does kill the ich by disrupting its fluid regulation...heat will speed up its reproduction

as I stated above (if anyone read it), I doubt it very much that if any fish has the ich on its body that it will be too late - case in point, the platy died (pretty much knew it before it happened (((shows my experience level - (((smiles)))

on another post I addressed this subject, snostorm was asking about ich, this was my reply on October 25, 2010:

"Ich, Ick, or White Spot Disease is the most common malady experienced in the home aquarium. Luckily, this disease is also easily cured if caught in time! Ich is actually a protozoa called Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. There are three phases to the life cycle of this protozoa. Normally, to the amateur aquarist, the life cycle is of no importance. However, since Ich is susceptible to treatment at only one stage of the life cycle, an awareness of the life cycle is important.

* Adult phase - it is embedded in the skin or gills of the fish, causing irritation (with the fish showing signs of irritation) and the appearance of small white nodules. As the parasite grows it feeds on red blood cells and skin cells. After a few days it bores itself out of the fish and falls to the bottom of the aquarium.
* Cyst phase - after falling to the bottom, the adult parasite forms into a cyst with rapid cell divisions occurring.
* Free swimming phase - after the cyst phase, about 1000 free swimming young swim upwards looking for a host. If a host is not found within 2 to 3 days, the parasite dies. Once a host is found the whole cycle begins anew.

These three phases take about 4 weeks at 70 º F but only 5 days at 80 º F. For this reason it is recommended that the aquarium water be raised to about 80 º for the duration of the treatment. If the fish can stand it, raise the temperature even higher up to 85 º.

The free swimming phase is the best time to treat with chemicals
. Raising the aquarium temperature to 80 º F will greatly shorten the time for the free swimming phase to occur."

Now you know how the ich process cycles.

I will agree that - once again if you read the reply above - once the ich find a host (a fish), the fish will probably die...the salt placed dissolved into the tank water will kill the ich as it reproduces itself in the gravel or while it is free swimming looking for a host (it has about 2-3 days to find a host or else it will die - reason for the heat, for it will speed up the process of dying before it finds a host, say about one day or so or there will not be as much ich reproducing in the tank)

the fish store you bought the fish from had a bad batch of fish; you should go someplace else. Then again I will agree with Alasse on this point, ich can come from out of the air or from just overfeeding...but in your case, considering you had 4 fish then bought the next few fish then in the next week or so the fish had an outbreak of ich, then yes, bad batch of fish from the store

you know what I always do when I am ready to purchase fish from a store I am unsure of...I will raise the temp and add the salt, in the 5th day, I will then add the new fish...so far it's worked out...then let the tank stay at 89 for another 10 days with salt treatment (((best precaution in the world)))

on if ph and higher temps affect ammonia:

term pH stands for the power of hydrogen and is simply a measure of hydrogen ions that are present in your water.

the higher the pH and temperature, the greater the proportion of ammonia in an aquarium will be in the form of the highly toxic free ammonia (NH3). This has bigger implications if you have a hard water aquarium at 80 degrees Fahrenheit compared to a softer cold water aquarium at 60 degrees Fahrenheit. An ammonia reading in the first aquarium would prove far more toxic than in the colder one. A useful rule of thumb is that at a pH of 8 ammonia is 10 times more toxic than at a pH of 7, and at 68 degrees Fahrenheit it is five times more toxic than at 32 degrees Fahrenheit. But remember, the only safe ammonia target is zero, irrespective of pH, temperature and salinity.

so on this point Alasse has a valid point...on the other hand, ammonia is more toxic at higher temperatures/high pH than it is at low pH lower temperatures. But this is not to say if you have an ammonia problem to lower the temperature and pH of your water. The only way to deal with high levels of ammonia is stop overfeeding, more water changes, better filtration (on your 10 gallon, you should have at least 100 gph (gallons per hour) running), and do not overstock the tank so the filters with good bacteria are too overwhelmed at once.

one more tip, it is best to have at least a 40 gallon tank - you have more room to make mistakes for there is more of a water column to absorb any chemical imbalance

so I say, continue the heat & salt treatment for 14 days, then lower it back to normal thereby killing all the ich in the tank

let us know how it goes


Alasse
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 5:35 am
Location: QLD Australia

by Alasse

*LOL* i will definately stand by my 'salt will not actually kill ich, it disrupts its cycle. If it cannot get to the host it dies, the salt irritating the fish to produce a thicker slime coat does just that.

Ich treatment not progressing as expected - please advise...

12 posts • Page 1 of 2

12
Display posts from previous: Sort by: