Frustrated- Someone please help!

13 posts • Page 1 of 2

Discuss all topics related to freshwater and planted tanks.


Flenay
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:08 pm

Frustrated- Someone please help!

by Flenay

My boyfriend bought my kids a fishtank mid-January. We brought it home, set it up and we let it sit for a week before we put any fish in. We started oot with a 4" comet, 2 gold fish, and a male beta. A week later we went back and got 3 Kissing Gourami's. After 2 weeks of having the gourami's (which we were told they were not aggressive) we took them back to the store because they killed the two goldfish. So in exchange the pet store gave us 2 guppies and 4 mollies (2 were tattooed and I will never buy again because I didn't realize the cruelty behind the process until I got home and researched it. When the I asked how the mollies got the color on them they said they were "unsure" of the process.)

Through out this mess. The water kept on getting cloudy, green and I found a brown residue on the plants, glass, filter and heater. I kept on changing the water at least one a week (sometimes twice) because I was under the impression that the cloudiness of the water would suffocate the fish. I called the petstore they told me it was normal and to leave the water alone.

About a week after getting the mollies and the guppies they all died. 6 fish in one day, dead! So than we were down to Blue (male beta) and Biggy ( comet). I went back to the pet store for help. They tested my water which was fine, handed me some Stress Zyme and told me that I need to let the tank go through the process and no matter how cloudy and green it gets that I should not change the water for a month. So now we are on week 2 since I made that stop at the fish store. I woke up this morning and Blue was dead. Once again the water is cloudy, green with algae and with traces of the brown algae.

After doing some research online and going through all of this I feel like I can't depend on the people in the pet store. Can someone please give me some advice!
I don't want Biggy gone and its hard on my kids going through all of these fish. The fish have truly become a part of the family. They have been part of many conversations and entertainment. One mama molly even had a few babies. Fish are beautiful creatures and I feel like I'm doing something wrong!


Okiimiru
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19 pm

by Okiimiru

Yeeeaahhh... Don't trust that pet store anymore. They have single handedly given you every bad piece of advice that you could have possibly received. I'm sorry. You sound like honestly a kind person who wants the fish to live but were wronged by the pet store.

What was actually happening was that your tank was cycling. Here, look at slide 8 of this powerpoint presentation: http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~davisda/class ... Design.pdf
That's the start up curve for a biological filter. Basically, there are two different types of beneficial bacteria that don't exist in a new tank that do exist in established tanks. These bacteria help you. Day 1 on that graph is the first day fish flakes are added to the tank. When you add fish flakes to the aquarium, the proteins in the food degrade into ammonia. This ammonia is very deadly to the fish, and will kill them in very small amounts. Even 2 ppm (parts per million) of ammonia will kill your fish. In the first seven days on slide 8 you see the ammonia line rise up pretty high. It gets up to nearly 5 ppm, which, without water changes to dilute the concentration, would kill most fish.

Now, nitrosomonas bacteria eat the ammonia and poop out nitrite. That's why around day 16 or so you start to see the ammonia level going down. The bacteria have started to reproduce and increase their population enough that they are converting the ammonia into nitrite faster than it is being produced, and the total concentration of ammonia is going down. So then you have a net increase of nitrite. Nitrite isn't as poisonous to your fish as ammonia, but it's still not a good thing. That's why a second type of bacteria, nitrospira AKA nitrobacter bacteria, will increase in population and eat the nitrite and turn it into nitrate.

You can see on slide 8 that around day 25 the nitrite is around 7 ppm. Well, that's not good for your fish. So that's why most people who know about this cycle wait until day 40 to add fish. At that point there are enough nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria to immediately convert all degrading proteins from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. This final product, nitrate, is much less toxic than the initial or intermediary products. While ammonia was toxic at 1 or 2 ppm, nitrate doesn't start to get toxic until 30 or 40 ppm. So the same nitrogen atom is less toxic in the form of nitrate than it is in the form of ammonia.

You can do this cycle simply by adding fish flakes; fish don't need to be present for it to happen. That's why a lot of people use the fishless cycling method. ( http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_5 ... rticle.htm ) Your fish store should have known about this, and if you want to go back there and tell them, you can. But usually they're ignorant 'cause they don't care, so their likelihood of listening to you is low :( I'm sorry.

"About a week after getting the mollies and the guppies they all died. 6 fish in one day, dead! So than we were down to Blue (male beta) and Biggy ( comet). I went back to the pet store for help. They tested my water which was fine, handed me some Stress Zyme and told me that I need to let the tank go through the process and no matter how cloudy and green it gets that I should not change the water for a month. "
Yeah, they lied. Again. I'm starting to really dislike these idiots. Changing the water will decrease the concentration of ammonia and nitrite, helping the fish to live. All you need to continue the process of cycling is the most tiniest amount of ammonia and nitrite. Like, 0.25 ppm will do it. So there's absolutely no reason not to change your water and help your fish out. For example if you do a 50% water change the concentration will drop from 2 ppm (deadly) to 1 ppm (less deadly, still deadly). But then if the next day you did a 50% water change again it would drop from 1 ppm to 0.5 ppm (even less deadly). Daily 50% water changes really help during this initial startup time. The beneficial bacteria population will continue to increase and the fish won't be too horribly poisoned. It's still better not to have fish in the tank during the cycling period, but if you do have fish in there you can do water changes to help them live.

Another thing you can do that would help would be to add live plants. Bacteria are one thing that eats nitrogenous waste. Plants are another. Here's an article about how plants are good: http://theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_B ... Filtration There's more information in Diana Walstad's book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", which your local library might be able to get a hold of for you. I think the e-book is like ten bucks, too. So anyway, plants eat nitrogenous waste. They are helpful. But they're also another thing to keep alive, so you've got to do research on how to do that, too. If they die they're not going to help you. So, plants. There are two points of advice I can give about them: Most of them prefer fine granules over the pea gravel that is sold in pet stores. For example soil from your back yard capped with two inches of that pet store pea gravel or capped with two inches of sand. I use fragrance free kitty litter, the kind that's pure clay and sold everywhere like at your local Walmart. There are also specialty plant substrates, but they're just more expensive than kitty litter and often have a low cation exchange capacity (meaning they run out of nutrients eventually). Here's an article a little more about that: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilize ... jamie.html
And my second point of advice for plants is to use full spectrum lighting because chlorophyll in plants can only absorb light from 400-500 and 600-700 nanometers, so if your light is only producing energy in the 500-600 nanometer range, the plants won't be able to eat it. ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ectra2.PNG ) But yeah, basically, if you're interested in getting live plants, post a response to this post and I'll give you more information.

The main thing I want to convey to you now is: Do water changes. They will help your fish.
And: Yes, it will get better. If you use dechlorinated water when you change the tank then the chlorine in the tap water won't kill the beneficial bacteria. These bacteria will increase in population and 40 days after you added the first fish flake, the tank will be much clearer and smell better and less cloudy. At that point all you have to do is buy a nitrate test kit and change the water when the nitrate gets above 30 or 40 ppm.

Those are the only two chemical-type things you need, really, a dechlorinator and a test kit. If you get the ammonia and nitrite test kit it will help you during this cycling time so you can know what the concentration is and know when it starts to get poisonous for the fish. The bacteria live on the surfaces in your tank, not in the water column. So feel free to change your water as much as you want. Just keep that sponge-like material in your filter wet with dechlorinated water at all times so the bacteria don't die. As long as your tap water pH and DH aren't too different from your tank water pH and DH (which I'm sure it isn't), there is absolutely no reason not to do water changes.
These particular pet store people are not your friends. They tried to sell you a product you didn't need (stress zyme) and didn't help you when you needed them. It's not your fault your fish died. It's theirs. :(


DanDman18
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:56 am

by DanDman18

First of all welcome to this website, we are glad to help, and are probably much more knowledgeable than most fish stores (without trying to sound arrogant). Secondly, I was wondering how large of a tank you have, because that might be an issue if you started with a small tank. I agree with Okiimiru, (and if you didn't read all of their post, I truly suggest you do, it sums up everything for a beginner.) Personally, if all your fish do die (I hope they don't) I feel it would be best to do a fishless cycle for the 40 days to establish the bacteria colonies, in which case I wouldn't recommend doing water changes, there is no point to. Or even if you do a cycle with fish, do it with only one or two, and get something very hardy, and I still wouldn't do as many water changes, so you leave all the ammonia to get converted, but as Okiimiru stated, if you have fish, water changes are crucial. Hope this helps.

-As a side note, I don't know what filter you did purchase, but in my opinion, Aquaclear makes the best HOB (hang on back) filters, but always go bigger on filters. (If you have a 20 gallon tank, get a 40 gallon filter) If you have something like a Tetra Whisper Filter, I would get rid of it, because most of the bacteria live in the filters, and when you change the Whisper filters, you are getting rid of all the good bacteria as well, and what happens is your tank essentially never fully cycles.
192a6-a595us.jpg
cf7f6-Tetra_Whisper_Power_Filter_30.jpg


Okiimiru
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19 pm

by Okiimiru

DanDman18's filter suggestion is great. I use an AquaClear myself, I think the 70-ish model for my 55 gallon tank. I chose AquaClear because the model was lifetime warrantied. It works very well, and if it ever doesn't, the repairs are free :)

If you have multiple tanks you can link them together with a fluidized bed filter. They have 6,000 square feet of surface area per cubic foot of filter media as opposed to 200 ish for a waterfall filter. http://www.bioconlabs.com/abtqs.html
(I ran into someone whose fish business folded recently because they were paying for a waterfall filter on each of their dozens of tanks. D'oh! One or two fluidized beds would have handled it. $150 for a fluidized bed reactor or $30 each per hang on back. So I just thought I'd write this little paragraph, in case anyone out there is reading this and going through a similar situation )

So yeah, for a single tank, Aquaclear is a good brand and waterfall filters are very much all you need. ^_^ If you start feeling the multiple tank itch (we all do sooner or later), go with a fluidized bed linked to all the tanks. :)


DanDman18
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:56 am

by DanDman18

I have to disagree with Okiimiru on this one.( real quick, i think an Aquaclear 70 on a 55 gallon is small, but it depends on the amount of fish) I feel a fluidized bed filter is great for all the surface space. However, i feel that linking tanks is a poor idea for many reasons. I have 7 tanks running, and all of them are individual. My main problm with "linking" all my tanks, is just that, it become one large system, and if something goes wrong in one, like ich or some other disease, then all your tanks get it, and then you have to treat all of your tanks; or if that sytem sprung a leak, all your tanks are without filters, instead of just one. Also, my fish are somewhat different, so each tank has different levels such as pH, tempurtaure, and food. Personally, i think linking should only be done to tanks where they are all the same style, ie same fish, tempurture, and pH, as well as a completely established tank, without any new fish every being introduced which might bring along disease. And if thats your idea, then i think you would be better off with one huge tank than 5 that are all similar.


natalie265
Site Admin
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:48 pm

by natalie265

I agree with the above advice, most importantly, that your fish store lied when they told you that your water was fine and that you should not do any water changes. Water changes are the most important thing you should be doing right now.

A couple other bits of advice: 1. DO NOT replace the media in your filter. That is where the beneficial bacteria will be growing and tossing it out will restart your cycle 2. don't buy any more comet goldfish. This is a pond fish that can grow over a foot in length. Also, goldfish are not a tropical fish and, having different temperature requirements, shouldn't be mixed with tropicals. 3. find a new fish store


harleydog
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:10 pm

by harleydog

What size is your tank? does it have a heater etc. Goldfish and bettas are more or less coldwater fish. The other fish you are putting with them are tropical fish and cannot live with this type of fish. They have to have a good heater (72-de needed) and they have to have a filter that takes media to help them stay healthly. The people selling you these fish either wants to sell them or just don't care about the fish.


natalie265
Site Admin
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:48 pm

by natalie265

harleydog, bettas are a tropical fish. Unfortunately, many people keep them in unheated bowls and vases, and they can survive like this, but it is not ideal, and i wouldn't do it for ethical reasons.


Flenay
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:08 pm

by Flenay

Thank you everyone for all of your information! It was very helpful, I feel better about this situation and Biggy is still alive! I started doing water changes again and plan on continuing to do so to keep Biggy alive. I also already have an AquaClear filtration system on the way and vow to never go back to that pet store!

Okiimiru, all of your information was very helpul and it made sense! I was amazed by your knowledge of fish and the powerpoint was an excellent resource to look back on. In the future I would like to get some live plants so I will definately keep you in mind but first I want to get past this 40 day cycle. So stop using the stress zyme, correct?

Thank you DanDman18, I am glad to be a part of this site where I can go for the correct information from people who know what they are talking about! =) I have a 20 gallon tank. We bought a "starter kit" in a box and got the tank, filtration system, heater and the thermometer. Yes I did read all of Okiimiru information and it was very helpful. I can't remember the brand name of this filtration system but I know its not an AquaClear. I do have one on the way though. I live in a small area so I just went right to Amazon and ordered one. I could not find a 40 so I got a 50, I thought that was better than taking a step down and getting a 30. Plus someday, if all works out, I would love to get a bigger tank.

Thank you Natalie265, I agree about the fish store and water changes. I looked at them like they were crazy when they told me to leave the water alone but did as they said...because after all...they are the ones who own the pet store and I think all people would assume that they would/should be knowledgable about the business they are in! I should of followed my intuition! Now when you talk about the MEDIA in the filter...what exactly is that? I feel really bad about Biggy being in our tank since I now know he is a pond fish...but what do I do? I'd hate to take him back to that store but he would probably end up like the rest of them. He does seem to be doing fine but I have an aunt who has a pond that she puts goldfish in during the summer time so maybe I will put him in there where I know he will be taken care of. LOL don't worry I'm already on the search to find a new place to buy fish at. We are on a 40 day countdown!

Hi Harleydog, I have a 20 gallon take along with a heater and the temp usually ranges between 74 and 76. I think these people are more about money that they are about being ethical!

Once again thank you everyone and I will keep you updated and post pictures!


Okiimiru
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19 pm

by Okiimiru

"Now when you talk about the MEDIA in the filter...what exactly is that?"
The spongy thing. You can use a $5 synthetic sea sponge from Walmart if the filter you have didn't have anything spongy inside it. ( http://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Bath-Sour ... t/10322263 ) The bacteria live on the surface of things, so the higher the surface area, the more 'homes' for bacteria to live in. The sponge's square feet of surface area is many times higher than all the other surface area in the tank combined, so it's the number one place to think of when you think about where your beneficial bacteria live.

Sorry to give you the impression that you had to buy an AquaClear; you don't have to get that specific filter; I was just trying to say that if you have a brand that is telling you to throw out the filter sponge that you don't have to listen to it. The spongy part is where the bacteria live, so throwing all of it out every month or so like some filter brands recommend works against you. I think AquaClear's technical official advice is to throw out one third of the filter canister's content every month. They have to make money, you know? So buying something once a month is a good idea on their part. And I guess it's not horrific advice because over time the sponge stuff does get gross. *shrugs* Just don't throw it all out at once, is all. Some filter brands recommend that, but it can uncycle your tank.

"I feel really bad about Biggy being in our tank since I now know he is a pond fish...but what do I do? I'd hate to take him back to that store but he would probably end up like the rest of them. He does seem to be doing fine but I have an aunt who has a pond that she puts goldfish in during the summer time so maybe I will put him in there where I know he will be taken care of."
That's a good solution.

"Okiimiru, all of your information was very helpul and it made sense!"
I'm glad I helped! Anytime you need to ask me a question directly (in case you post a question to this website and I miss it), my e-mail address is websurfer89@hotmail.com

"Once again thank you everyone and I will keep you updated and post pictures!"
Cool, tank pictures are always fun to see :)

Frustrated- Someone please help!

13 posts • Page 1 of 2

12
Display posts from previous: Sort by: