I tested the drinking water from my tap and the amonia is between 1-5. The PH is at least 8.
I have put in peat for plants slabs two weeks ago and am using PH down with no real success. My amonia also never falls below 0.5. I definitely am not overstocked and care for the tank according to the book and have two good filters in place.
Therefore, my conclusion is that when I do water changes I am introducing this baseline amonia and PH into the tank via tap water and then using artificial means to try to bring them down which have not worked. My system also probably can't cope with the introduction of amonia of at least 1 and then also the waste in the water. Therefore, what I have done is look at some bottled water. Interestingly, some water has a PH of 7-7.8, but the one from Woolworths has a PH below 4 and no amonia at all. I have therefore decided that the best way to bring down the PH and amonia of my water permanently is to do water changes and add this water slowly until my PH is what I want it to be and of course I will be adding no amonia. I have added some Tetra conditioner to the bottled water as well when I add it. Once my water values are correct I will add the Woolworths spring water together with my tap water when I do water changes and keep checking the PH. I did a 10% change this morning and my PH which was 8 yesterday (probably rebound PH from the PH minus I am using) is now 7.5. Tomorrow I will change another 10%.
I started this bottled water experiment today because I had bought three baby angels again and two died yesterday, one in the day and one in the evening. So I only have 5 left now and the third baby that I bought was looking listless this morning. My tank is over 3 months old and the introduction of baby angels always results in most dying with a very few strong enough to adapt and survive. I have really been doing everything correctly. Definitely it is the tap water which is a problem and artificial means and filtration do not bring down this baseline amonia and PH properly and permanently.
At the pet shops in my area it is interesting that one of the shops they do not sell amonia testing kits at all and tell people that the only value to look at is nitrites. When I asked about amonia I was told to just put in plants and test the nitrites as this is the important level. At the other shop, I mentioned the amonia should be nil and he said that I must not worry if it is up a bit as amonia spikes during the day at least 5 times. He said I must leave the fish and only act when they are looking ill. I think, although I might be wrong, that they probably say this as no-one can get their amonia to nil because everytime we do a water change we are introducting amonia of at least 1.
Well, many many hundreds of rands later, I am starting to learn my own way, thanks very much ...
Persistent Amonia and high PH
14 posts • Page 1 of 2
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a1k8t31524 - Posts: 939
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 5:10 am
Josephine you sent me a message about a week ago and i tried sending you one back but i do not believe that it worked.
Here is my conclustion. With the peat moss you added if you are running carbon in your filters you are just canceling everything out, carbon removes all of the humic and tannic acids that the pete moss putinto you water and thoes are what lowere the ph of the water, Also pete moss tends to leech out the organics in it very quickly so it needs to be replaced more often. every other week or so
I would not use the PH down. i have read alot about this and it seams it is not a good thing, and it can cause alage problems. I would use something like blackwater expert, but be carefull if you are using it with peat moss also because you could cause a massive drop in you PH i would try removing the carbon from you filters first if you use is and put in new peat moss in, (unless it is part of your substrate) and see where that gets you if it does not work go with the blackwater expert.
I have the same problem as you as far as my tap water goes it comes out of the tap at 8.7 and my tank is a constant 6.8 i use blackwater expert, during every waterchange and and i do a 25% change every 3rd day.
As far as the ammo goes it should always be at nil, it is the most toxic of the 3 ( ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite) I would recomend doing larger tan 10% water changes and more often, avoig using any chemicals that say they remove ammonia, most of the time they will "detoxify" the ammonia will but it does not remove it so therefore it can jack with your water tests, make it look like the ammonia is high when in all acuality it is not
And also if you have a good amout of plants in your tank your nitrites and nidrates should also stay at nil my tank is heavily planted and for the last 5ish months i have seen no sighn of either of the 3
I think what may be causing you ammonia problel is that your tank never got fully cycled and the fish were added and the cycle was just never able to keep up.
I also believe that your angels died is stress due to your high PH and and ammo
Angels are fish that thrive in acidic waters ( low PH 5.0 - 6-8) they will be ok in a netural PH but more akline waters cause major stress on them
_ thats my 2cents and sorry i could not respond to your PM
-andrew
Here is my conclustion. With the peat moss you added if you are running carbon in your filters you are just canceling everything out, carbon removes all of the humic and tannic acids that the pete moss putinto you water and thoes are what lowere the ph of the water, Also pete moss tends to leech out the organics in it very quickly so it needs to be replaced more often. every other week or so
I would not use the PH down. i have read alot about this and it seams it is not a good thing, and it can cause alage problems. I would use something like blackwater expert, but be carefull if you are using it with peat moss also because you could cause a massive drop in you PH i would try removing the carbon from you filters first if you use is and put in new peat moss in, (unless it is part of your substrate) and see where that gets you if it does not work go with the blackwater expert.
I have the same problem as you as far as my tap water goes it comes out of the tap at 8.7 and my tank is a constant 6.8 i use blackwater expert, during every waterchange and and i do a 25% change every 3rd day.
As far as the ammo goes it should always be at nil, it is the most toxic of the 3 ( ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite) I would recomend doing larger tan 10% water changes and more often, avoig using any chemicals that say they remove ammonia, most of the time they will "detoxify" the ammonia will but it does not remove it so therefore it can jack with your water tests, make it look like the ammonia is high when in all acuality it is not
And also if you have a good amout of plants in your tank your nitrites and nidrates should also stay at nil my tank is heavily planted and for the last 5ish months i have seen no sighn of either of the 3
I think what may be causing you ammonia problel is that your tank never got fully cycled and the fish were added and the cycle was just never able to keep up.
I also believe that your angels died is stress due to your high PH and and ammo
Angels are fish that thrive in acidic waters ( low PH 5.0 - 6-8) they will be ok in a netural PH but more akline waters cause major stress on them
_ thats my 2cents and sorry i could not respond to your PM
-andrew
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josephine - Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:50 pm
Dear Andrew
Thanks for the much needed advice. I took out the carbon when I put the peat slabs for plants (a substrate) in. I have also been using some Tetra blackwater extract on the helpful advice of the tetra advisors. The pet shop assures me that the gravel they sell me does not interfere with the PH. I also took out all objects including the rock when I put in the peat moss. At that time I planted a lot of amazons as well as some other plants.
You may well be correct that my tank was not properly cycled before adding fish. Unfortunately I was advised at the pet shop that if I put nutrafin cycle in (Hagen product) I can add the fish within 24 hours and I can keep adding the fish every week as long as I keep using this expensive product. It seems clear now after a bit of reading that fishless cycling for a good couple of weeks is best.
You did not mention what the amonia is of your tap water? I still have the problem that my tap water is high in amonia. Therefore, every time I do a water change I introduce highish levels of amonia which superimpose on the amonia created by fish and plants. In addition, unfortunately, in South Africa, recently there has been a lot written about problems with our water emerging. I am not sure what chemicals they add to the water but it seems really resistant to modification.
I think that good advice for starter fish keepers is to fill the tank the first time wtih a combination of bottled water (one where the PH is zero and no amonia) and tap water if the tap water is high in amonia, has a high PH and has suspect chemicals added. Then cycle the tank for a couple of weeks before adding any fish and proceed slowly. Then, thereafter, always change with at least half bottled and half tap water. I think the water conditioners provided by manufacturers such as tetra and sera cannot be expected to deal with all water problems in third world countries like South Africa.
Regards
Maria
Thanks for the much needed advice. I took out the carbon when I put the peat slabs for plants (a substrate) in. I have also been using some Tetra blackwater extract on the helpful advice of the tetra advisors. The pet shop assures me that the gravel they sell me does not interfere with the PH. I also took out all objects including the rock when I put in the peat moss. At that time I planted a lot of amazons as well as some other plants.
You may well be correct that my tank was not properly cycled before adding fish. Unfortunately I was advised at the pet shop that if I put nutrafin cycle in (Hagen product) I can add the fish within 24 hours and I can keep adding the fish every week as long as I keep using this expensive product. It seems clear now after a bit of reading that fishless cycling for a good couple of weeks is best.
You did not mention what the amonia is of your tap water? I still have the problem that my tap water is high in amonia. Therefore, every time I do a water change I introduce highish levels of amonia which superimpose on the amonia created by fish and plants. In addition, unfortunately, in South Africa, recently there has been a lot written about problems with our water emerging. I am not sure what chemicals they add to the water but it seems really resistant to modification.
I think that good advice for starter fish keepers is to fill the tank the first time wtih a combination of bottled water (one where the PH is zero and no amonia) and tap water if the tap water is high in amonia, has a high PH and has suspect chemicals added. Then cycle the tank for a couple of weeks before adding any fish and proceed slowly. Then, thereafter, always change with at least half bottled and half tap water. I think the water conditioners provided by manufacturers such as tetra and sera cannot be expected to deal with all water problems in third world countries like South Africa.
Regards
Maria
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josephine - Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:50 pm
Andrew, also just to mention that I changed 20% of water with the Woolworths bottled water on Thursday. The water has a zero PH and no amonia. I tested the water on Friday and it was zero for amonia (the first time for this tank!). I tested the water on Saturday and it contained some amonia but less than 0.5 (previously it has never been less than 0.5). I tested the water again today and it was zero for amonia! It seems strange that simply a 20% change with water containing no amonia should bring down the amonia to nil but perhaps the fact that this water 'breaks up' my tap water and dilutes it renders the binding action of the chemicals in my tap water less strong. I don't know, as I have no knowledge of how chemicals in tap water work. I just know that I am very pleased and relieved about the effect. Next week I will do another 20% change using water from Woolworths and then 10% with Woolworths water the following week and thereafter I will do water changes with half bottled, half tap water due to cost constraints.
Just one question about the peat you were talking about. The peat I bought said 'Peat for plants' , is in a slab form and specifically must go below the gravel, then gravel on top, then the plants. Is this peat therefore substrate? It did not indicate on the packet how long I can leave it in for.
Thanks
Maria
Just one question about the peat you were talking about. The peat I bought said 'Peat for plants' , is in a slab form and specifically must go below the gravel, then gravel on top, then the plants. Is this peat therefore substrate? It did not indicate on the packet how long I can leave it in for.
Thanks
Maria
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a1k8t31524 - Posts: 939
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 5:10 am
i have never tested my water for ammonia, so personally i do not know
But i have massive amounts of biofiltration in my tank,
I have never herd of the peat product that you are using, but like i said peat leached out all of its organics pretty quickly. not saying you should remove the slabs but try getting some peat granules either online or at the store, alot of thime they will be located in the pond section
All that cycle crap that says it boosts your biofilter and you can start adding fish 24grs later, all of that is just a waste of money... may do a littlebit but not a whole lot
dont waste your money on it
If tap water is not a good option
Use bottled water purified through reverse osmosis
then you know you are getting PURE water
But i have massive amounts of biofiltration in my tank,
I have never herd of the peat product that you are using, but like i said peat leached out all of its organics pretty quickly. not saying you should remove the slabs but try getting some peat granules either online or at the store, alot of thime they will be located in the pond section
All that cycle crap that says it boosts your biofilter and you can start adding fish 24grs later, all of that is just a waste of money... may do a littlebit but not a whole lot
dont waste your money on it
If tap water is not a good option
Use bottled water purified through reverse osmosis
then you know you are getting PURE water
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josephine - Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:50 pm
Hi Andrew
Just to let you know that my amonia is still nil. My PH stayed at 7.5 since the last change with stream water. My nitrates and nitrates are nil. My plants are very happy with all this as well.
I did another 10% change with Woolworths water (PH 0 and amonia 0) today, being a week later. My PH is now between 7 and 7.5 (my test kit does not specify). I expect this to stay permanent until the next water change with Woolworths water which will again bring down my PH permanently a notch or three. Once my PH is what I want it I will start with bottled water that has a PH value of around 6.8 as I don't want to pull down the PH too low. I will also later start mixing half bottled and half tap water.
If I start up another fish tank I will definitely save myself hundreds of rands if I put in water that has the correct PH to begin with and also water that has no amonia. This might seem to cost money but compared to the cost of trying to control water in a new tank that introduces a high PH and introduces amonia, the cost is much less. Ir ia simple and safe solution which beneifts the fish by preventing initial fish death and the owner, but I suppose the sales at pet shops on certain products might go down if people were advised to do this ...
Regards
Maria
Just to let you know that my amonia is still nil. My PH stayed at 7.5 since the last change with stream water. My nitrates and nitrates are nil. My plants are very happy with all this as well.
I did another 10% change with Woolworths water (PH 0 and amonia 0) today, being a week later. My PH is now between 7 and 7.5 (my test kit does not specify). I expect this to stay permanent until the next water change with Woolworths water which will again bring down my PH permanently a notch or three. Once my PH is what I want it I will start with bottled water that has a PH value of around 6.8 as I don't want to pull down the PH too low. I will also later start mixing half bottled and half tap water.
If I start up another fish tank I will definitely save myself hundreds of rands if I put in water that has the correct PH to begin with and also water that has no amonia. This might seem to cost money but compared to the cost of trying to control water in a new tank that introduces a high PH and introduces amonia, the cost is much less. Ir ia simple and safe solution which beneifts the fish by preventing initial fish death and the owner, but I suppose the sales at pet shops on certain products might go down if people were advised to do this ...
Regards
Maria
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
I agree with a1k, go the ol fashion way. cycle with 2 fish like danios, tetras, and build your bioload that way
also I have found that if the nitrite level is 0 the ammonia level is 0. I have had a constant nitrite and ammonia level at 0 for over 6 months. Nitrate and PH willo fluctuate, but the PH 9 out of 10 times stays contant at 7.2 and the nitrate anywhere from 10-25, sometimes gos to 35, but after a good 20% water change, it goes back to 5%, then I fast the fish for 3 days, and all is back to normal.
you can cycle a tank in a good 6 weeks the old fashion way, and also enjoy the process of cycling, you get to know the fish and how your tank responds to the growing bioload, or you can attempt to use powders and bioballs or pellets to speed up the process within hours to a few days , but what have you really accomplished?
Us fish hobbyists get into this hobby for the sheer love of it. We want to experience the entire process with the live plants, fish, invertebrates. YOu want to watch the ecosystem grow into a full fledged natural habitat, so to speak.
I can understand if you want to get into the hobby to make money by selling fish, so you sgtart 50 20 gallon tanks and cycle them all, then breed fish to sell. Okay fine from that point of view.
But do you enjoy your fish, to create a beautiful relationship between the inhabitants and yourself, take your time. Enjoy the process.
just a few words of been there done it well (((smiles)))
also I have found that if the nitrite level is 0 the ammonia level is 0. I have had a constant nitrite and ammonia level at 0 for over 6 months. Nitrate and PH willo fluctuate, but the PH 9 out of 10 times stays contant at 7.2 and the nitrate anywhere from 10-25, sometimes gos to 35, but after a good 20% water change, it goes back to 5%, then I fast the fish for 3 days, and all is back to normal.
you can cycle a tank in a good 6 weeks the old fashion way, and also enjoy the process of cycling, you get to know the fish and how your tank responds to the growing bioload, or you can attempt to use powders and bioballs or pellets to speed up the process within hours to a few days , but what have you really accomplished?
Us fish hobbyists get into this hobby for the sheer love of it. We want to experience the entire process with the live plants, fish, invertebrates. YOu want to watch the ecosystem grow into a full fledged natural habitat, so to speak.
I can understand if you want to get into the hobby to make money by selling fish, so you sgtart 50 20 gallon tanks and cycle them all, then breed fish to sell. Okay fine from that point of view.
But do you enjoy your fish, to create a beautiful relationship between the inhabitants and yourself, take your time. Enjoy the process.
just a few words of been there done it well (((smiles)))
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josephine - Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:50 pm
Thank you
Yes, I did not realise there was so much to fish keeping. A person has to be vigilant on a daily basis and keep up with cleaning little bit little bit every second day or so.
I am quite convinced after all the problems I have experienced that the better quality water you put in to begin with, the less your problems and the less the expense will be in the long run. My four angels are thriving well, my water quality is good and even and I am happy. Haven't had to buy PH down or expensive bacterial mixes or anything. Just putting in flora with the water change and a bit of blackwater extract, more for the plants and because I have stock of it.
Angels are the best fish for relationships, discus are more cool but they are old ladies...
Regards
Maria
Yes, I did not realise there was so much to fish keeping. A person has to be vigilant on a daily basis and keep up with cleaning little bit little bit every second day or so.
I am quite convinced after all the problems I have experienced that the better quality water you put in to begin with, the less your problems and the less the expense will be in the long run. My four angels are thriving well, my water quality is good and even and I am happy. Haven't had to buy PH down or expensive bacterial mixes or anything. Just putting in flora with the water change and a bit of blackwater extract, more for the plants and because I have stock of it.
Angels are the best fish for relationships, discus are more cool but they are old ladies...
Regards
Maria
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
well it is good to see things are working out
I agree 100% with you, little bit here little bit there, and in time, you will get the knack of fish keeping
I have found in this hobby that if you start off slowly after researching for many months the longer you will wind up keeping healthy inhabitants, the longer live plants will thrive.
still, it is good to see things are working out; anytime you have a question, I am sure there are many here to help you. some members have been in this hobby for decades, others like myself for a little over 6 months, and whether you've been in the hobby for 60 years or 6 months you will find that patience and persistence will pay off in the end
Happy Fishing
I agree 100% with you, little bit here little bit there, and in time, you will get the knack of fish keeping
I have found in this hobby that if you start off slowly after researching for many months the longer you will wind up keeping healthy inhabitants, the longer live plants will thrive.
still, it is good to see things are working out; anytime you have a question, I am sure there are many here to help you. some members have been in this hobby for decades, others like myself for a little over 6 months, and whether you've been in the hobby for 60 years or 6 months you will find that patience and persistence will pay off in the end
Happy Fishing
