i guess we have diff points of view on this one, i view my fish as pets and part of the family and when it comes to doing something that may cause harm or a fatality to one of my family i see it as a bad thing, you are right on the other hand in the fact that it's not my fish so why should i give a rats ass. I hunt and kill wild game to eat, and i fish and keep some of the fish to eat, although there is a diff, when i shoot an animal it's dead in a matter of seconds, when i catch a fish and am going to take it home to eat it goes into a large tank in the back of the truck with water and air stones along with a power head for circulation, those fish once i get them home are cleaned and killed in a humane way, off comes the head with once chop of my big butcher knife and that's that. no pain but for a few seconds. what i don't use of any animal i harvest is taken out to the woods and left for mother nature to dispose of in a completely natural way. that way i am not waisting any bit of the animal. i do see both sides of the equation but maybe am being a bit of a hypocrite when i say that taking a fish out of the water just to measure it to show off the fact that its a big fish seems a little bit i don't know on the stressful side for the fish? especially if you are keeping it as a pet, i know everyone has their opinion and i like most have a strong opinion that's just life and the way it goes i guess.
I guess you're breeding your pit bulls for fighting? I hope you don't electrocute, burn, or hang the losers to death. That's not cool. I worked in a chick hatchery for a while and I refused to do the beak, mane, and waddle removal. Why the hell are you removing your dogs ears Gumbii?
what good does it do to pull the fish out of water to measure it, then photograph it? I'm still trying to figure this out... using the mentality that we should be "adults" and mistreat something for no general purpose other than pride is actually the mark of a child. I don't disagree that some animals require more handling in order to provide them a better or more comfortable life, but pulling a fish out of water is pointless, and does stress them (if you don't believe me just hold your breath for 30 seconds and see if u turn red).
Also, any fishkeeper who sees the need to measure their fish should be able to measure by sight.
Gumbii, you may be on to something. For the purpose of basic research, breeding and tracking general growth and development perhaps it's cool to handle your specimens the way you do. We're lacking a tremendous amount of research on humans as well. Let me attach some electrodes to your temples and your balls, goose you a little, then measure a few things like heart rate due to stress and the decibels of a grown man's screams.
Bug,
It doesn't matter that dogs have had their ears and tails cut off for years, it is still cruel and unnecessary. There is absolutely no medical reason to do it. It is only for appearance or to prep an animal for fighting. I worked against this and other atrocities for years, I wouldn't recommend going head-to-head on this one.
Bug, I wasn't referring to your personal practices, just anyone's notion that cropping is ok, I didn't think that you were condoning it. My suggestion to skip a head-to-head match up was out there for anyone. I reread my post and it looks like I was on you a bit. I see you've deleted your post though...don't delete because of me! I'm writing in the middle of the night when I should be asleep....
I didn't circumcise my son because I thought it might be more pleasurable for him when he's older, and I saw no reason to make one of the child's first painful memories one involving his penis. I hope no-one here declaws their cats. It is the removal of the last digit with the bone, and it is inhumane as the cat needs claws to walk and run properly.
My stepmother didn't circumcise her son either, and her doctor said that it is very common now for parents to skip that brutality. If anyone has heard an infant scream in pain when his skin is cut away without anesthesia would have a hard time doing that to their son. Although it was common practice for a long time, I'm sure people weren't as educated about it as they are now. Doctors don't let the parents listen in.
I agree with the declawing. I wasn't sure about it when I was much younger and on the advice of a vet I had my 6 year old cat declawed. It was horrible. She bled off and on for several months and was tender-footed for a year. I had her for 19 years and I often remembered and regretted.
I have a little dog that was rescued from a busted puppy mill when he was 3 years old. He had always lived in a 2x2 cage stacked against a wall with others. Excrement and filth falling from cage to cage that was never cleaned and fed a kind of watery meal because it was cheap. Many of his teeth were gone, ribs showing, scars from adjacent dogs grabbing his ears through the bars, and he was completely wild, like a coyote. His joints, tendons, and muscles had to be slowly conditioned because he'd never walked more than 2 feet. He was only touched by a rabies pole to hold him back while a female was put with him to breed. I've had him for 5 years, and I'm very good with dogs, but he's still a mess. The owner defended his "business" saying that it was "just dogs" and they didn't know the difference. I wanted to go to his court appearance, but I know the limits of my self-control...
This is a game hosted by The Discovery Channel. You captain a research vessel that tracks tagged sharks, you are guided by satellites communicating with the tags. The more information you gather about the shark's habits, the more money you are awarded from the research institute that you can use to upgrade equipment or hire more divers. The *best* part is that the sharks are real and the data is real. Obviously your boat is not real, but you are traveling to the actual location of the sharks as they move about the Pacific and gathering real data. Good stuff. And it's free.
well.........we've gotten a little on the hot button side here eh?
Animal cruelty is a terrible thing and an unacceptable practice, I am not ready to run out and throw blood on a fur coat, or join an animal rights group, but i am interested to see where everyones "lines" are........................i find it interesting that as a rule a lot of people freak when a puppy or kitten is hurt.....but don't blink when a mouse is killed in a trap or a snake is hit on the road {keep in mind I'm terrified of snakes, lol}
I understand Gumbii's approach as i grew up on a dairy farm, which in and of itself is a "milk mill" in practice...........
and although everyone of our cows had names and was treated well, we did have to do things that would make a lot of people upset.............so again, where is the line?
I have a champion blood line Boxer, she's completely white which is a non accepted color by the ABA, AKC or any other orginization, so they are usually destroyed at birth. My ex girlfriends parents are breeders and show them profesionally, so I adopted her {LEXI is her name, actually "A Lexus Honu Carrara 4" is her full name" } her tail is cropped {this is done at birth and their tails are done before their eyes are open, like trimming finger nails ...they don't scream for the 3 days while the bands are on....now cropping the ears is a different story......... if your not aware of it .....it can take a year or more to get them done right as after they are cut, then they have to be shaped with card board forms and surgical tape........so I didn't opt for that and I think she's beautiful with her natural ears ........... but i also think boxers that are cropped are beautiful too......
I eat beef, but won't touch veal. and we raise beef animals for food as well........again where is the line?????
taking a fish out of water doesn't make much sense to me....so I probably won't do it to mine..........but ......if that person had a need to do so, well ....i hope he didn't kill it and lose an investment that he/she is obviously proud of.....
so i a general statement ....I do believe animals are here for our use and should be looked at in that way....i don't believe they are equals to us, I don't believe they have rights under any law.....and i don't believe they are more inportant than a human in any way shape or form BUT..............with that I BELIEVE WHOLE HEARTEDLY.......that we have a resposabilty to care for them properly and have been charged with the task of caring for them in a humane and proper way ...............that being said .......everyone have a great day and enjoy our little {or in Gumbii's case, large and scary, lol} friends............Snowboss
Snow, not necessarily true about the mouse thing. :) I have rental properties and it is in the lease that inhumane traps or poison are not allowed for mice, gophers, whatever. There are humane options and I do care about that. I pay for and provide humane options for my tenants. There is no reason to be cruel to any animal because we believe that it is inferior.
Also, I disagree that animals shouldn't have rights under the law. That is to say that pit bull fighting, beating your dog, leaving your horse in the sun with no water are all legal, and should be legal. Animals may be here for our use (but I don't know who decided that), but that doesn't give us the right to abuse them or to fail to protect them from abuses.
As far as farms, certain things may be necessary, and that's usually people's argument, but again, that doesn't give us the right to choose less humane options.
People are the only animal that maims and abuses weaker animals for sport, fun or unnecessary personal gain.
I've thoroughly enjoyed this hobby for the few months I've been involved. My only disappointment is discovering how much abuse and neglect, in my opinion, occurs. I've worked a long time to fight feline/canine abuses such as dog fighting and puppy/kitten mills, but I had no idea how bad the pet fish industry is. Disheartening.
I'm not sure what you meant about "trimming finger nails" of dogs. If you meant removing the dew claws, that has a medical basis in that dew claws are easily ripped off when a dog is playing. I owned a vet clinic a few years back and it's painful whether the dog has its eyes open yet or not, that's irrelevant, although it does seem to hurt more the older a dog gets. Anyway, we always used a general anesthetic when removing dew claws. Maybe it's just me, but that seems obvious. (?)
In reference to PK's post as far as post-birth operations, I don't recall the sensation or feeling of losing some 'skin' and can honestly say I'm not really sure what I'm missing if anything. I'm willing to bet at the time I probably wasn't happy but I can't imagine a better time if there is such a thing to do such things to a human, or an animal, then post-birth. However the one time I flipped off my 18 speed at 40mph over 10 years ago, I remember like it was yesterday, and not just cause of the sole scare on my chin. Silvadine (sp?) is awesome stuff.
my dogs are blue ribbon pit bulls... to keep their papers i have to crop thier ears as puppies...
and they are still doing experiments on humans... don't you guys watch the news... you should watch current tv once in a wile... there's a ton of human experiments and cruelty... just how amy winehouse was getting her hair weeves from a bunch of orphan kids in africa or something...
i don't think anyone was accusing you of fighting your dogs Gumbii....although i am glad to here you don't lol ............
Zamb....i was referencing the bands they put on the tails to dock them when they are born .....meaning it's like cutting your own finger nails, it doesn't hurt unless you cut to much of course and docking is the same way.........
I also want to stress that it's because we humans can be so cruel that laws have to made to protect animals ....but ...i believe we should already have a responsabilty with in us to take care of them and not have to be forced to cmply to a certain criteria....I.E. a friend of mine has bluetick hounds ...they are hands down the best dogs I have ever seen in my life....they listen they are part of the family, they are exptreamly well cared for BUT they were trained with hunting colars { we know them as shock colars} as most all hunting dogs and trials dogs are...but because of this practice he got into a lot of problems with a local lady who claimed to be a PITA member .....meanwhile her dogs were unkempt, running into the street chaseing the neighbors cats and one of her "free and equal to us human" dogs even killed a litle girls rabbit after detroying the hutch to get to it....................................... so my point is this ...............I don't need a law to tell me that beating an animal is wrong..............its very unfortunate that their are people out there that do though...............
I also agree with useing humane options when ever posable..................Snowboss
